site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 24, 2025

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

4
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I could understand this all better if it was just Trump doing it alone. Sort of a lower class rebellion against the educated class. But what really has me confused is the fact that it’s being spearheaded by Musk and “tech” people.

There's a strong anti-academia sentiment even among highly educated tech professionals. We have youtube to serve the needs of undergraduate education. And as for research, they assume that 99% of it is bullshit, and the 1% of it that isn't bullshit can be carried out under the auspices of private corporations.

I've always been a staunch defender of academia, so I'm sympathetic to your position. But after enduring decades of the total ideological capture of the academy by the left, I can't say that I'm disappointed or surprised that the right is pushing back and taking action.

Tangential: the 'total ideological capture of the academy' by the left is in significant part a product of right-wing anti-intellectualism. If you're going to adopt the position that anything but business, finance, and engineering are parasitic and quite possibly degenerate, it will not be surprising that a) existing academics shift away from you b) smart conservatives avoid academia* in favor of business, finance, and engineering and new academics overwhelmingly lean left c) a feedback loop emerges where conservatives and academics increasingly view each other with hostility because the former (largely correctly) believe the latter don't share their values and the latter (largely correctly) believe the former want to destroy them.

*(This is also why American conservatism is intellectually bankrupt and relies on Catholics, a small number of converts, and borrowing critiques from woke-critical centrists for basically all of their intellectual firepower)

  • -13

This might be a story you could have told my grandpa or something in the 60s. The academy has been so left-captured and exclusionary of right of center thought for my entire life that being "anti-intellectual" is just not wanting to heap billions of dollars of state funding on communists, terrorists, and sympathizers thereof.

It isn't like there aren't academic fields outside of science that haven't appealed to conservatives. History is an example. But Universities have long limited history departments, and conservative takes meant you didn't get tenure or even considered for tenure track.

The right has plenty of intellectuals; they have simply been systematically excluded from academia, so they publish their work in blogs instead of journals and get funded by subscriptions instead of taxes.

it will not be surprising that a) existing academics shift away from you

Why would anyone think that's surprising? I suppose a few people might believe that professional ethics and impartiality beats human nature and relationships, but I can't see that being a very common view.

I think it's bad that those supposedly-neutral institutions have taken up partisanship.

c) a feedback loop emerges where conservatives and academics increasingly view each other with hostility because the former (largely correctly) believe the latter don't share their values...

You think it's thoughts that the conservatives are opposed to? What happened to "parasitic and quite possibly degenerate" from earlier in the paragraph?

...and the latter (largely correctly) believe the former want to destroy them.

Where are the bulldozers? As far as I can tell, American conservative goals stop at tightening the public purse strings. If private donors want to fund it they can go right ahead.

I think it's bad that those supposedly-neutral institutions have taken up partisanship.

I agree. I think it would have been better for everyone if scientists had steeled themselves against the slings and arrows of the resentfully ignorant. Alas, the scientists are only human, and after decades of being told "you're an enemy", they took it to heart.

You think it's thoughts that the conservatives are opposed to?

You know what? Yes, actually.

Again and again, the American right has proven itself to be distrustful of thoughtfulness. Many are quite proud of not being effete intellectuals who think too much. The business gentry that comprises a large share of the conservative elite resent academics and think education is solely for training new workers, nationalists can't stand critical examination of cherished patriotic myths, and religious conservatives have concluded that science is an existential threat. A large part of why they're liable to view academia as parasitic is that it doesn't sit well with their cult of action.

(This is also why they've largely been reduced to begging liberals to make conservative art for them - it's not some fundamental inability of the conservative mind to produce art, but that modern American conservatism holds artists in contempt).

This would be a lot more credible if it weren't for feminist vulcanology.

That is to say, there is very good evidence that quite a few fields are in fact entirely fraudulent. Nothing about right-wing anti-intellectualism created or could create or sustain these fields. This makes it far more likely that the right wing is merely correct about the total ideological capture of the academy, than for the capture to have been caused by the withdrawal of the right wing.

Unsurprisingly, when you completely abdicate a domain to your ideological opponents, it becomes dominated by your ideological opponents. Things like "Feminist vulcanology" exists because American conservatives decided the only way they were interested in engaging with intellectualism was by standing outside and throwing rocks.

  • -19

No, feminist vulcanology exists either because those with leftist ideology in science put their ideology over their scientific integrity, or because those without integrity were more powerful within science than those with it. It should not require right-wing intellectuals to keep ideology out of science; if the left-wing intellectuals have integrity, they would do it.

I decided to google feminist vulcanology, and tbh everything I see looks like incredibly pedestrian efforts to encourage women to study vulcanology. This may be triggering to misogynists, but this does not look like some anthropologist rambling about other ways of knowing. If this is what's corrupting science, then I withdraw my previous statement and chalk this up as another instance of American right-wingers demanding slavish submission to their beliefs. Acquiescing to that would be pretty much the opposite of integrity.

If conservatives want to contest ideas, they should throw their hat into the ring, not demand liberals think conservative thoughts on their behalf.

  • -10

The specific issue was actually feminist glaciology, but you are being deliberately obtuse by pretending to not know what he means.

"I cannot fail by now to recognize the tactic of wholly emptying out one's head when put on the defensive" really stuck with me because of how often you see it.
"I don't remember, I've never seen that, I don't know what you could possibly be talking about, why do you keep causing Culture War by bringing up examples?"

I in fact did not know that, because I don't keep a comprehensive list of petty far-right bugbears in my head.

Whenever I see people going off about ridiculousness in academia, I am unavoidably reminded of Twitter Smell Lady, who was held up as an example of silly research only to be repeatedly vindicated. The core problem here is that most of the would-be critics of academia are fundamentally incurious, which is why about half the time their cherry-picked examples turn out to be totally reasonable and only sound "dumb" either because the reader lacks the education to understand what they're talking about or has an ideological blindspot.

"I cannot fail by now to recognize the tactic of wholly emptying out one's head when put on the defensive" really stuck with me because of how often you see it.

Quite.

  • -12

I am unavoidably reminded of Twitter Smell Lady, who was held up as an example of silly research only to be repeatedly vindicated

Was she? How?

More comments

The core problem here is that most of the would-be critics of academia are fundamentally incurious, which is why about half the time their cherry-picked examples turn out to be totally reasonable

And yet who exactly laughed at Alex Jones for saying chemicals in the water turned the frogs gay?

I've been saying it since we were on reddit - the left's primary argument tactic is pretending to be retarded.

It probably was glaciology I was thinking of, but similar volcano-related things are around too, e.g.

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/earth-science/articles/10.3389/feart.2023.1172867/full

Children first: women’s perspectives on evacuation at Fuego volcano and implications for disaster risk reduction

...this paper seems entirely unobjectionable. I'm genuinely baffled as to what the problem is here.

I am one of those people against the treatment Matt Taylor was given in 2014, and even so, I don't think "reduce obnoxious wokeishness in science" is worth a lazily-indiscriminate defunding campaign.

You're buying into it being lazily-indiscriminate, but the case in the OP was literally about "we will use this federal money to exclude white boys from internships for the crime of other white men being a lot of scientists."

That's not indiscriminate, that's a precision guided bomb lobbed through a window at the enemy general smoking a cigar.
All they have to do to stop it is stop trying to kick white boys out of the science career pipeline, but they won't ever stop because for some reason it's the most important thing in the world.

More comments