This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I'm careful to say this since so many have said this before and been wrong that it's become a meme at this point, but this may be an indication of the breaking point between Trump and the traditional MAGA base. From his emergence in 2015 to roughly 2022, this was pretty much all he had. There were some moderates who voted for him in 2016 but turned away from him rather quickly. There were also traditional Republicans who opposed him up to the point that his nomination became inevitable and then backed him out of necessity, but in this case it was clear who was driving the car. Every once in a while he'd allow himself to be talked into doing something that was unpopular with his base but he had no qualms about throwing the responsible party under the bus when this became apparent (hence all the high-profile firings).
This seems different. Elon, Vivek, JD Vance, RFK, Joe Rogan, and the like aren't the MAGA base, and they don't represent the MAGA base. The pro Trump posters on The Motte don't represent the MAGA base. The left spent years trying to tar Trump as a racist, and while those smears weren't exactly fair, they tapped into an underlying truth that those charged with defending Trump couldn't admit: The MAGA base isn't exactly the most enlightened on racial issues. What I mean by this is that they don't bother trying to hide their opinions on things beyond the most basic kind of justifications. Here's a quote from the Pittsburgh NPR affiliate about a local community with a large Hatian population:
These people don't interact with Indians here on H-B1 visas for software companies; they interact with Indians who own convenience stores. they could care less about sophisticated arguments surrounding immigration because "they shouldn't be here". The only thing they offer as an argument besides dislike of foreigners is that they take American jobs. When someone like Vivek says that these H-1Bs are necessary because of "American mediocrity", the true MAGA folks don't nod in agreement. They blame Democrats; it's the liberal world where schools only teach Critical Race Theory and pronouns rather than The Three Rs, where coaches hand out participation trophies, where people don't smack their kids anymore. The solution to this problem isn't importing Asians or Asian culture but returning to traditional American culture. So if you're a Vivek Ramaswany or an Elon Musk and you can't find any Americans you want to employ then that's just too fucking bad. These jobs should be going to Americans, period.
I don't know much about Laura Loomer, but her criticisms are spot-on. The MAGA base didn't vote for Trump so they could hear horseshit excuses about how actually we really need to import people from India and give them high paying jobs. These are people who buy $70,000 trucks that get 15 mpg and then complain about the price of gas. They don't want to hear about how a multi-billionaire like Elon needs their tax dollars to subsidize his line of electric cars because he'll save us all from the global warming non-problem. The base, who has been there from the beginning, is right to question why a guy who seems hell bent on draining the swamp and dismantling the deep state is being unduly influenced by people who supported the opposition until recently.
There are two reasons I give this a better chance of causing a real split than previous controversies. First, immigration is a core issue. Trump has in the past taken positions contrary to the traditional conservative base on a number of issues, but he had the cover of not having taken positions on them. And he was able to split the baby on abortion. Here, he's made an unequivocal statement that runs contrary to his supporters' expectations on a core campaign issue. The second reason is that he's taking Elon Musk's side over that of his base. Elon gave Trump's PAC a lot of money and now expects, and is getting, influence in return. The fact that a non-American billionaire who supported Biden and Clinton can get that kind of influence just from writing a check, and use the influence to get Trump to waver on immigration, can't possibly sit well. And then there's the fact that Trump clearly came down on the side of Musk when he could have just stayed out of the whole thing. I could be wrong. This whole thing could blow over (H-1B visas are unlikely to become a major policy point), Trump could have an unrelated falling out with Musk, etc. But this seems to give greater odds of Trump's MAGA downfall than anything we've seen thus far.
Is that true though? They might not be the most educated, but I feel like they have more direct, lived experience dealing with people of other races than most liberals do. Working class folks deal with Mexican migrant workers, Middle class folks deal with Indian H1B office workers, and southerners deal with black people in their community. The typical liberal either lives in a snow-white suburb, or in a city where the cost of living is so high that it effectively outlaws anyone who isn't very exceptional. They can live a fantasy of "all humans are the same, race is only skin deep" because they never have to actually interact with racial issues in their normal lives. For a working class person, race is very real and very important.
Yeah, that's why our views on race are less 'enlightened'.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I think this is far too much credit to maga base and how plugged in they are. From my interactions with my most trumpy relatives it will be a combination of being completely uninformed and disconnected on the h1-b debate, agreeing with whatever trumps stance is anyway, and denying whatever of trumps positions that contradicts their own convictions are true.
But to your credit, yes trump has taken a side pretty clearly here:
https://x.com/DMichaelTripi/status/1874287613156487440
Still I am quicker to believe that MAGA will just finish their transformation into yankee centrists and give up on opposing immigration before they will abandon trump. I don’t understand why, but this is what any other historic issue has been as well (with the exception of the jab which they just #3 above and deny the dissonance)
More options
Context Copy link
Pun intended?
More options
Context Copy link
Ok, the MAGA base doesn’t really care that much about h1b software engineers- although dislike of Indians is very widespread among working class Americans- this is a fight between tech-adjacent DR twitterati and not DR tech twitterati. Your typical MAGA voter is retired or works in a field that is more likely to compete with immigrants from Latin America.
More options
Context Copy link
It’s not just Trump’s core base that’s unhappy about mass immigration. No one likes suddenly having ten times more competition to get a job. The only reason most liberals were ok with immigration was that the people coming in weren’t the type that were going to compete with college educated urbanites. That’s why there’s so much vitriol about Indians: it isn’t really anything about Indians in particular. It’s just that this is the first major demographic of immigrants that can compete for white collar jobs. Judging from the discourse on this site, Silicon Valley people aren’t any happier about it than factory workers in the Midwest were. Sure they may keep quiet about it in public, but privately they are pretty upset.
There’s all kinds of people in America who are not otherwise very racist, but who will just straightforwardly say they don’t like Indians. I think it being Indians has something to do with it.
I agree, and the only way I am able to really explain it is that there is the strain of, what is in America, very low class behavior, by ostensibly white collar PMCs. The first is trash. Littering is something low class people do in America. Whether it is a black or Mexican neighborhood in the inner city just throwing backs and bottles on the ground when there is a perfectly good trash can on the corner, or a guy with 5 broken lawnmowers in his front yard out in the sticks. Thats low class. But well paid Indians tend to do something similar, but different. I've noticed it in neighborhoods, but also workplaces. It does feel more uniquely foreign to have 3 Indians in an office than 3 Koreans. This is also mirrored in the business world, my dad was very active with small businesses, he would deal with a lot of ethnicities as a result. For whatever reason, Indians and Arabs have the worst reputation as attempting to cheat on a deal.
I think i know what you mean, while no means universal there is definitely an attitude particular to upper sec indians where they seem to think that they are somehow "above" common courtesy or having to clean up after themselves. There seems to be this attitude that using "pleases and thank-yous" when speaking to serving staff lowers ones own status through the implication of equality. Ditto picking up your own trash instead of having a servant do it for you.
Of course the result is that when Brahmins find themselves in a more courtesy oriented environment such as Japan, Korea, or portions of the US, behavior like being rude to servers and leaving a mess for others to clean up immediately codes as "low class" and no amount of appeals to your Brahman ancestry is going to change that. If anything the Shudras and Dalits come across as more desireable neighbors because unlike the thier "high caste" bretheren they are at least polite.
More options
Context Copy link
There is also the fact that a substantial number of Indians (nowhere near all, but quite a few) have a very strong, very unpleasant body odor. I've read that it comes from frequently eating curry.
More options
Context Copy link
I have had success in dealing with 2G Canadian Indians on small-time work for hire contracts in this regard by kind of... not being a huge racist and saying things like "don't fuck me around bro" -- but yeah, it's definitely noticeable. I wonder whether it doesn't trickle down to employee-type relationships in the sense of trying to make the most of things for oneself no matter what being an aspect of the national character?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link