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PaperclipPerfector  1mo ago (text post)   30032 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 21, 2024

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One candidate is very clearly trying to ethnically cleanse me, my family, and my children.

This isn’t ethnic cleansing. She’s not deporting white Americans. She’s not forbidding white Americans from marrying other whites. She’s just importing lots of people for deficit financed cheap labor. This is bad, but words have meanings.

If the Plantation of Ulster (where my ancestors on my Dad's side were sent to settle North Ireland to displace my ancestors on my mother's side) is widely considered ethnic cleansing then this sure as hell is. Unless you think the Paddies were just being a bunch of whiny babies.

As an Ulsterman myself, you do have to point out that this was a forcible relocation though as in the locals where literally forced off the prime land and onto less desirable land so that my ancestors could take it. In Springfield 30% of the population had gone for entirely unrelated reasons prior to the later immigration.

Even if we consider the Plantation of Ulster as ethnic cleansing (and we probably should) it is very very different than what is happening with immigration now. No-one external is forcing America to take immigrants and put them in places that have been depopulated by de-industrialization, they are doing so of their own free will because they think it has benefits to them.

Now not all Americans want them, but that still doesn't make it ethnic cleansing, any more than me immigrating to the US from Northern Ireland was, or lots of Irish people who moved to England were ethnically cleansing the English in vengeance.

Calling that ethnic cleansing is similarly wrong, and for what it's worth the Wikipedia article on it does not seem to contain the word "cleansing". I googled for the combination of the two terms, and the first two relevant-seeming hits I found are from Quora and some book on Amazon containing wording such as

The Irish were simply to be pushed off to poorer, less desirable parts, in a sort of early version of ethnic cleansing.

and

It was, beyond doubt, ethnic cleansing, but not of the worst kind because the Irish were made to leave rather than killed on spot.

If anyone thinks that it was ethnic cleansing on the basis that the Irish were forced out of the most desirable locations in favour of the Britons (so it was... ethnically cleansing the best parts of Ireland only?), I guess that's fair, but this is a premise that is also not present in the US immigration case - there is no forcing of the current population to relocate to less desirable areas, and in fact the new immigrants tend to cluster in the least desirable ones.

If anyone thinks that it was ethnic cleansing on the basis that the Irish were forced out of the most desirable locations in favour of the Britons (so it was... ethnically cleansing the best parts of Ireland only?)

Most of the ethnic cleansing in the Balkans after the breakup of Yugoslavia was similarly just forced relocations (deaths were in the tens of thousands vs. over a million forcibly relocated).

I guess that's fair, but this is a premise that is also not present in the US immigration case - there is no forcing of the current population to relocate to less desirable areas, and in fact the new immigrants tend to cluster in the least desirable ones.

State-subsidized relocations into areas drive housing prices up and wages down (along with all sorts of other first and second order effects) and the state subsidized part makes it literally impossible for the native population to compete. Coupled with refusals to enforce the law against the new population, and an overbearing willingness to enforce it against the native population if they try to fight against the resettlements, makes it very much done under the threat of violence and actual violence from the state and the migrants.

The stories that are commonly related as evidence of ethnic cleansing in the Balkans all involve mass murder, though (Srebrenica etc.); the usability of Yugoslavia as evidence for natural usage of the term is also further complicated by a fat US foreign policy goal thumb on the scale (compare to how the media would even have evacuation of orphaned children from captured parts of Ukraine by Russia count as genocide).

State-subsidized relocations into areas drive housing prices up and wages down (along with all sorts of other first and second order effects) and the state subsidized part makes it literally impossible for the native population to compete.

What's a concrete example of an area that you believe was ethnically cleansed in this fashion?

Brampton, ON? So far as I can tell, the place seems to be 100% Indian nowadays.

In the adjacent district to my part of London (and I won’t tell you which bit sorry) all the street signs are now in Arabic. I walked through and didn’t see a single white person.

Springfield, OH is one of the more obvious ones. Rotherham in the UK is another. The process is still ongoing in both of those locations though.

From a quick look, Springfield, OH housing prices look about the same as those in any small northeast US metro area I've seen, and well within the margin of what one can afford with a $20-30k/year salary.

Deliberately working to reduce the White share of the population is called...what exactly? I like my words, what words do you use?

“Replacing” you? It’s a traditional complaint, even.

I guess I wouldn’t mind “supplementing,” either. It’s more accurate.

Foreigners drive down native birth rates. Diversity drives down White birth rates. It is replacement, and it's genocide, and it's ethnic cleansing.

Supplements are not the majority, and if they are, they are no longer supplementing. It's less accurate, but it's more palatable to your sensibilities.

I wouldn't be saying this if it were truly supplemental, and the nation were 85% White, 10% Black, and 5% Supplements. Did you notice that the numbers are far from that? Or are you just ignoring it?

Dandelions aren't supplementing my lawn any more than grass is supplementing my flower beds. And Morning Glory, no matter the location, needs to be uprooted in any civilized state yard.

Foreigners drive down native birth rates. Diversity drives down White birth rates. It is replacement, and it's genocide, and it's ethnic cleansing.

Actually, in the US, white birth rates are highest in three areas- those with high percentages of religious minorities(ex Amish country), deep rural areas, and heavily Hispanic areas.

those with high percentages of religious minorities(ex Amish country), deep rural areas, and heavily Hispanic areas.

Not foreign, few foreigners, and are the Hispanics counted as White? I would bet on it.

Foreigners drive down native birth rates. Diversity drives down White birth rates.

[citation needed]

The lowest birth rates are found in very homogeneous countries such as South Korea and Japan. In spite of all its diversity, the US white (non-hispanic) birth rate is still greater than that of comparatively homogeneous countries like (much richer) Norway or (barely) (much poorer) Hungary. What gives?

"Diluting" seems like a more accurate and value-neutral verb.

The lowest birth rates are found in very homogeneous countries such as South Korea and Japan. In spite of all its diversity, the US white (non-hispanic) birth rate is still greater than that of comparatively homogeneous countries like (much richer) Norway or (barely) (much poorer) Hungary. What gives?

Multiple factors?

Number 1 result when I searched that exact phrase, which references this study.

Now that I've cited it, you'll concede the point, right? Otherwise what is the point of asking for the citation?

Thanks for the citation. It's a bit of a rough read, being a working paper (which also means it has not fully gone through peer review), but if I read it correctly, Table 5 suggests that with sufficient controls, diversity drives down other races' birth rates by at least about as much and in many cases more (Blacks, East Asians) than those of Whites. This makes your gloss of it rather tendentious. Who is being genocided here again?

(Assuming the rest of the paper is sound, I would take it as evidence for a more general point along the lines of "diversity drives down birthrates".)

diversity drives down other races' birth rates by at least about as much and in many cases more (Blacks, East Asians) than those of Whites.

Who is being genocided here again?

The ones who are being subjected to migration in their homelands. Niger isn't getting diverse, and neither are India or China even if Nigerians or Indians or Chinese are also negatively affected by diversity.

The ones who are being subjected to migration in their homelands.

But White people's homeland is not America. The Native Americans then would have been ethnically cleansed by us. But if it has to be our homeland to count then we have no claim to be upset about people moving to the US. Leave that to the natives.

More comments

Why does it matter for purposes of determining whether a "genocide" of Indians is going on whether an Indian woman is made to have fewer children in India, or whether she is shipped to the US and then made to have fewer children there? Would you consider it less genocidal of US Whites if the same numbers (so something like 100 million?) that is currently enticed to move into diverse US cities and goes on to have lower TFR there instead were enticed to move to India and died childless over there?

If these people weren't "deficit financed" maybe. But that's not the situation. There is no level playing field here. There is a scheme to undercut the labor market of legacy Americans, so that the company no longer needs to pay a living wage, and the government subsidizes these people to live there.

So you lose your job because these people can be paid less. Your taxes go to paying for them. All your institutions (schools, hospitals, policing) are overrun by them such that the services you can derive from them are greatly diminished. Landlords kick out their tenants because why rent to 1 legacy American family when you can collect welfare checks from 5 third world families.

Yes, they are replacing white Americans. This isn't just a "git gud" or "sucks to suck" argument where Whites have sour grapes about foreigners outcompeting them. The thumb is on the scale so fucking hard it's impossible to survive, except to accept living in third world conditions or leaving.

Or being killed in the ongoing pogrom.

"supplant", possibly. Increase the supply of workers and the mid-to-high iq whites are forced to move to lower crime and higher-pay, yet lower birth-rate cultural and physical zones.

In 20 years we can check back in on these towns that had 50-100% of their existing population in "deficit financed cheap labor" airdropped on them. Assuming the <70 IQ third worlders stay, I'm pretty sure with the crime and destruction of institutions, along with the total deafness the political class has towards the legacy population's suffering, the area will be 75-99% ethnically cleansed.

And yes, words do have meaning. This is every bit an ethnic cleansing as the Jewish Pogroms in Russia, as the Goths or the Huns invading the late Roman Empire and pillaging the provinces (often under a fictitious appellation from the Emperor as the new "protector" of that province, even as they pillaged it and put it's natives to the sword or torch). It's every bit an ethnic cleansing as the "illegal settlements" in Gaza or the West Bank.

There are ways to remove populations from their ancestral ground short of putting them on trains and gassing them. Or putting them on a death march to a reservation. Just because it falls narrowly short of the worst ethnic cleansings in history doesn't mean it's not at least meeting the standard of several others which are widely considered ethnic cleansings.

it's not at least meeting the standard of several others which are widely considered ethnic cleansings.

Name them.

I’ve said before that I don’t like Haitians, if they were dumped in my neighborhood I would call my reps to demand that El transportador moved them somewhere nonspecific. But moving them in is just retarded, not ethnic cleansing.

The Plantation of Ulster

Thank you, that seems to fit.

As an Ulsterman I would say it does not fit, because while that was an ethnic cleansing (in my view) that is because the locals were forcibly removed from their land and forced into the worst areas with significant violence. In Springfield and other areas 30% or so of the population had left prior to any immigration, and weren't forced from their land as happened when my ancestors colonized Ulster. If anything it is the other way round, where they are being put in the undesirable areas, rather than taking the prime land forcibly from Americans.

Thank you for the context. I’m more or less unfamiliar with the history except for ulster as where the scots-Irish came from.

moving them in is just retarded, not ethnic cleansing

If the Left would call the same thing an ethnic cleansing if it were anyone but them perpetrating it, I think calling it an ethnic cleansing is justified.

But it’s all just who/whom at this point. The intent is the same in either case; and is ignoring what the people responsible say openly.

They cry and scream about it all the time when China imports Han Chinese into Xianjang to displace the local minorities there. Or when Israel does it in the West Bank.

I, uh, think there’s some other stuff going on in Xinjiang.

Name them

Jesus I thought I did.

This is every bit an ethnic cleansing as the Jewish Pogroms in Russia, as the Goths or the Huns invading the late Roman Empire and pillaging the provinces (often under a fictitious appellation from the Emperor as the new "protector" of that province, even as they pillaged it and put it's natives to the sword or torch). It's every bit an ethnic cleansing as the "illegal settlements" in Gaza or the West Bank.

All of those examples involve people literally getting expelled from their homes and forced to leave. There is basically none of that in the idiotic open borders policy.

White flight? Sure it’s “voluntary” but it’s still coerced expulsion

If you look at the national level, it would seem that white emigration from Zimbabwe and South Africa fits this description, but I doubt anyone would describe it as such in polite company.

Read about the Jewish Pogroms in Russia. There was no program to forcibly expel them. Rather the government plugged up their ears and closed their eyes when a smattering of Jews got assaulted or sometimes murdered, and the Jews self-deported fearing for their lives and sensing which way the wind was blowing.

What is happening to towns across America is absolutely as bad, if not worse, than the Jewish Pogroms in Russia.

I’m sure you can point to pogroms in the heartland? Like there is a problem with undocumented immigrant crime but as far as I can tell they’re not particularly more likely to get off than native citizens.

Aren’t illegals pretty explicitly ethnically cleansing blacks on the West coast? Granted that’s not who OP is concerned with, but it’s similar

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2013/01/15/latino-gang-leader-convicted-la-ethnic-cleansing-campaign

Probably, yeah, Mexicans(used as a catch all term here for Latino groups they pride themselves on being whiter than others) and blacks don’t get along. But it’s not who the op is concerned with and anyways, most of the illegals these days are centracos.

Also essentially what happened in the Rhineland Massacres. Yeah, sure, the Church and local nobility said it was bad for the crusaders to kill a bunch of Jews on their way to the holy land, but they didn't do anything to stop it (and the call to join the crusade is what created the conditions for the massacres in the first place).

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