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I've been reading up a bit on skeletal growth, and I wanted to make an observation about the discussion around skeletal growth that I see online.
I consistently see a negative attitude across mainstream sites like reddit towards anyone inquiring whether they have growth left, or asking about advice on how to grow more. I think this might play into Culture War because there's obviously a battle between the different "pills" on the role of male height in sexual attraction, and perhaps this battle has reached the general public. It seems commenters on these posts want to distance themselves from the "black pillers" who place extreme importance on height. They're so scared of being lumped in with the outgroup that they will avoid giving any practical advice.
Basically, it seems that commenters assume there's some motive around confidence or sexual attraction involved whenever a guy is asking about how to grow taller, and because of that assumption, they try to address the "deeper issue" instead of addressing the guy's practical concern around actually getting taller. People can have a multitude of reasons for wanting to increase not just height but frame size. Frame size governs the maximum amount of strength and muscle you'll be able to build. Average stature is probably the ideal for overall health. Then you have the idea that height can be useful (but not necessary of course) for business endeavors, etc. Commenters immediately assume that "growth/height" posts are the result of low confidence and some kind of issue with women, but overall stature (not just height) does seem to have benefits, and while nobody should beat themselves up for their stature, why not optimize it?
People consistently say that "it's mostly genetics", and while it may indeed be "mostly genetics" that explains deviations from normal height at a population level (?, because what about the theory of increasing height with current generations due to better nutrition), you have no way of knowing whether a particular person's deviation from normal height is explained mostly by genetics.
It could be that a particular individual's deviation from normal height is mostly explained by non-genetic factors. Things like low birth weight, malnutrition, hypothyroidism or other glandular conditions, and even childhood trauma can result in stunted growth. Now, these subsets of the population may not be very common, but they exist and it's not fair to tell them they wouldn't be able to significantly change their stature with the right medical treatment at the right time (perhaps involving HGH or other hormonal treatment to stimulate catch-up growth).
Also, even for people without some preexisting cause of short stature, do we really know that their parents achieved their genetic potential? What if the child has the potential for greater growth than they are experiencing? Couldn't there be a relatively safe way and time to take HGH to boost height in such a case? And aside from taking HGH, the things that optimize growth tend to be good for your overall health anyway: right sleeping habits, diet, active lifestyle, and maybe some protein supplementation. Yet most people don't even give these suggestions to people asking for help on reddit (to be charitable, a decent number of commenters on "growth" discussions do give these suggestions, but why would anyone not give these suggestions?)
Then you have all the people who say "your growth plates are closed at your age", sometimes to men who are freaking 18 years old. It does seem that many people (especially women) do not grow past 18, I certainly did not, but it doesn't seem responsible to make such a blanket statement. For most people, growth plates close at different times and often not completely until your early 20s. There's tons of research on this. Also, not that many people really "try" to get taller for a significant amount of time, at least not once they are 18. A lot of people seem to accept the "100% genetics" shtick. Do we really know what could be possible? Who are we to say that a well-timed calorie surplus and right sleeping habits/diet/exercise/stress management and relaxation in someone's late teens and early 20s, combined with some HGH and something to keep growth plates open, would not measurably change their final height, assuming the person was not optimizing these factors before? It may not always work, but who is to say it wouldn't have an effect for a given individual?
It shouldn't be taboo for someone to try to optimize their own body.
Then there's all the people who say they had crappy lifestyle habits and still grew tall, or had great lifestyle habits and had short stature. And to that I say, indeed genetics has a big role to play. Some people will be big and tall no matter almost anything, others could be small no matter what (although HGH might have some effect anyway if started at the right times?). My main point is that there's probably a subset of the population that is underachieving relative to their genetic potential, so why shouldn't those people try to reach their genetic limit? Why does that point elude so many people on mainstream sites? I have provided some reasons at the start of the post but perhaps there are others.
Now, I don't believe in giving people false expectations, so I understand if that's why people are often dismissive. But, while you should not "expect" height or other skeletal growth from any intervention, it's not right to entirely and often smugly dismiss it like so many commenters on these kinds of posts do. It really does not seem impossible. In so far as my common sense is accurate, there are things people can do to optimize growth and maybe make a difference, HGH being the most significant of those things but healthy lifestyle habits being not insignificant. Perhaps I am wrong about much of this, I am still forming my opinions on this matter but this post shows where I stand at this time.
Akin to what @Sloot said about women wanting naturals, I think that ties into a feminist wish for only the 'good' men to have children, selecting out the ones with bad genetics, while keeping as many women as possible on the sexual market. They want all women to be 'good enough' but far from all men. 'Cheating' through growth enhancement or steroids etc goes against that agenda.
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I really appreciate your willingness to stick up for something like this. Haven't looked into skeletal growth personally but I know for a fact I've grown at least and inch just by working with my body and releasing stored tension.
I think the human body is capable of far more than modern scientific reductionism allowed for.
Agreed re: "I think the human body is capable of far more than modern scientific reductionism allowed for." And very interesting that you were able to grow by releasing stored tension.
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You’ve at least partially answered your own question. Height is a sexually dimorphic trait, with men being taller than women and women caring more about male height than men caring more about female height. Thus, mainstream blue-pill spaces (such as Reddit) are averse to discussions on male height, for they take away from gender egalitarianism (except when men can be framed as shitty and women as victims).
Meanwhile, despite supposed body-positivity, blue-pillers are quite fond of height-shaming or height-downgrading when it comes to men they don’t like. DAE lift-wearing DeSantis is 5’8” and peak Trump was barely 6’0” at most?
Women further detest discussions on male height because reminders that women prefer male dominance traits like height (or strength, power, ability to inflict violence, etc.) make them feel more superficial, submissive, meme-like and less like the Wonderful, strong independent #GirlBosses that they of course are. Or discussions that feature men optimizing their way toward garnering more female attraction. Such discussions compromise the blue-pill, Disneyian notion that attraction is some magical, unpredictable, unquantifiable phenomenon that Just Happens.
Sometimes blue-pill women will begrudgingly concede the female preference for male height with enough studies or anecdotal, social-proofed evidence such as TikTok video after video of young women dunking on short men. Yet, they’ll still look to blame societal Conditioning and/or take the Harvard-on-Asians route in saying that in their Lived Experience, short men are ick-inducing not for their shortness—but rather the personalities of short men—the toxicity and insecurities of short men in being short.
Women don’t care about male height. If they do, the preference isn’t that widespread. If it is, it isn’t that drastic. And if it is, it’s not a big deal. Even if it is, it’s only due to Socialization, toxic masculinity, and male insecurities. And even if it isn’t, all you incels and manlets deserve it and should stop talking about it.
Women are often low-key (and sometimes high-key) hostile against male self-improvement, especially with regard to sexual market value (a concept of which is gross and icky in their eyes, and shouldn't exist). Part of it may be it’s a reminder of their own hypoagency and lack of accountability (see, for example, Ryan Long on Girl vs. Guy Motivation). Weight is a dimension by which many Western women could improve their lot, yet they loathe to admit as such much less do so.
Another part may be envy, as much of what makes women more attractive or unattractive for relationships involve cannot-put-the-toothpaste-back-in-the-tube situations like age, tattoos, past promiscuity, single motherhood. In contrast, thanks to preselection and female mate-choice copying, male promiscuity and out-of-wedlock children can make men more attractive.
A third component may be that women want naturals, not imposters who somehow cheated their rightfully deserved fate. Women are generally quite hostile against men doing things such as steroids, working out “too much”, social media optimization, wearing lifts, getting limb-lengthening surgeries, grinding approaches for experience and/or to play the numbers game. In this realm, men are generally quite supportive of other men, despite nominally increasing the competition.
I wonder what proportion of those in favor of gender affirmation therapies and surgeries for children and teenagers to transition would be in favor of dispensing HGH for boys and/or young men to grow taller. After all, what could be more gender-affirming for the average boy or young man than to be taller?
Re: Self improvement
My experience was that women in my social groups were supportive of male self improvement. They responded positively to guys trying to work out, dress better, have more girl friendly hobbies, learn2cook etc. Chicks see that as value they can capture in a relationship. They look more dimly on PUA stuff, even though it works on them. From their perspective, it's a form of trickery via false advertising.
Re: Limb lengthening:
I think that's directly analogous to facial plastic surgery on a chick. Even when reproduction isn't the conscious goal, that's what people are thinking of at a subconscious level. Your kids won't get that height or that nose.
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Interesting thoughts, thanks for the response. To your last point, ironically, it was on gender affirmation subreddits that I found the most accurate information on possible ways to boost height, including mentions that growth plates don't generally close until the early 20s, and that it's partially from lower HGH levels that people don't grow much in their early 20s, or that sometimes postural and hormonal changes can indeed increase height a bit through cartilaginous growth, etc. And even discussion on future possibilities of growth plate implantation/restoration. It was only in those subreddits that the discussion was taken seriously and practical advice given.
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This comment fails the gender turing test.
Not in the broader point- your main thrust is at least defensible. But everything about the psychoanalysis and framing is just bitter ranting akin to 'hurr durr conservatives are pro-life to have more white babies'.
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Nah. This kind of thinking about a globally-consistent view of how one is oriented towards the world is a prototypically male thing.
I know plenty of girlboss (and even feminist) types that embraced submissiveness (sometimes extremely), leaning into whichever role they wanted to pay in a given interaction. The ability to switch between those modes without feeling like either contradicts or diminishes the other is probably a female power that's worth more analysis here.
Interesting point, I've noticed this and would like to read/think more about why some women are better able to handle such seeming contradictions. I can't help thinking one style of thinking has got something mixed up and I'm not at all sure it's the female style.
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I think questions about increasing ones height often have a whiff of an XY problem. Rarely do people want to increase their height as an end in itself, they want to increase their height as a means to advance some other end. The problem (my impression) is that the research on how to effectively increase one's height and how it causally impacts the outcome of interest are sufficiently unclear that it's efficiency in terms of accomplishing ones goals is questionable. That is, for almost any reason people care about their height (sexual success, job success, getting swole) there are almost certainly better things that could be doing with their time, in terms of ROI, than trying to increase their height. So when people ask about increasing their height other people try and infer their motivation for asking and guide them to more effective actions, given their imputed goals. Maybe you're someone whose on the 99.9th percentile of job/sexual/lifting success such that your height really is your limiting factor but I doubt that describes most people asking about it.
Good points, XY problem is exactly the term to describe what I'm talking about, I did not know about that term before. I agree the research is unclear, that's what I hope will change someday. Somewhat agree there are better things one could do with their time in most cases, well actually fully agree there are better things to do with ones time, but my point would be that height optimization doesn't have to exclude those other things necessarily.
I am arguing to build a pretty big umbrella and cover a bunch of cases, for me in particular I have definitely not maxxed out everything else in my life to the point where height is the only thing left to optimize. However, it is a pretty foundational thing, height and frame size that is, in that you can't lose it once you have it for the most part. It matters more for social success at the extremes of short stature. Also medically, larger frame size (by this I mean bone diameters, like wrist/ankle thickness) pays dividends into old age, promoting greater bone strength in a way that muscle gain alone does not. So it's a bit different from other things we can optimize, height/skeletal optimization would be a more secure investment if it pays off, although it might not pay at all. Although like you said, the research is kind of unclear on how to optimize height...my post discussed using common sense (and the few studies/info we do have) to optimize it, but yeah maybe that's not really enough to justify the effort for most people.
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Because there is, in all but a handful of cases.
That's not a bad thing though. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make yourself more attractive to women. It's nothing to hide or be ashamed of.
Because almost nobody "just optimizes" things for no reason. The fact that you took the time and effort to write this (lengthy) post in the first place, a post which demonstrates considerable familiarity with the details of the topic, indicates there's more going on here than just "yeah I thought that height would just be a cool thing to optimize because, y'know, why not?"
What you're asking for is a reprieve from politics. But interpersonal relations are inherently political, so no such reprieve can be granted. Your distinction between "harmless optimization" on the one hand and "confidence issues" on the other is your attempt to carve out an apolitical space in a domain that is intrinsically political (and on what basis do you draw this distinction? You say that height can be useful for "business endeavors", but how is this any different from height being useful for attracting women? Zero sum competition for money and opportunities, zero sum competition for access to women, it's all the same).
You can't be half in the game and half out. Other people rightly see this as dishonesty. "Yes, I'm very interested in doing this thing that will make me more sexually attractive to women along an axis that is highly prized by them, but that's not why I'm doing it, don't be silly." (Or, to tie this into the broader culture war - the demands for "political neutrality" you see from certain rightists, especially "moderate" rightists, when it comes to school curricula, art and media, etc. They've been so browbeaten into submission by the left that they're afraid to acknowledge that they too have a legitimate political point of view, and this point of view should be represented and taken seriously. But the left is very correct on this point - political neutrality is an illusion.)
You can't hide from the political and ethical implications of your actions. Instead, you should embrace them. You too have a particular point of view, and interests, and desires, and you should assert them, regardless of what any redditors might say.
Interesting response, thanks. I agree it's not a bad thing and there's nothing wrong with wanting to make oneself more attractive to women, and that one doesn't need to hide that intention. I think that's a change I could make based on what you said, I could be more clear about my intentions not just in this matter but in all arguments I make. It's definitely one of my intentions, I don't just want to optimize for optimization sake, I want to optimize things I care about, attraction being one, overall strength potential being another, business being another, other health reasons and bone strength later in life being another, etc. Yet only one of those, the attraction one, would create tension if you voiced it in a place not as "free" as this one. I think you make a good point re: I am trying to depoliticize the matter of increasing height. That is true. Perhaps because I want more research or at least inquiry on this front, and when things get political in a way that goes against the mainstream, maybe the research won't get done. Also, I think it matters that there are multiple reasons that increased height and overall size is beneficial.
For example, enough people agree on the many benefits of weightlifting that if a guy is asking how to get stronger (even if he's asking for a reason that disagrees with someone's politics), nobody is going to withhold advice and all would speak freely. Most everyone recognizes the benefit of being stronger. So I suppose I'm trying to get at something like that but for height, although maybe the two are not ever going to be treated similarly. Height is indeed very valued by women, but short stature and frame size also increases cardiometabolic risks later in life, bone strength later in life, a bunch of things really. I started caring about height because of attraction, and caring about frame size for health reasons, but honestly I see so many benefits to both at this point (social benefits and health benefits) that the only reason it isn't treated like weightlifting is because it's really only something you can do if you're a kid, in your teens or in your early 20s, so it's not something most people who need to improve their health (who would likely be older) can do to improve their health, unless research into reopening/inserting natural growth plates comes around, unlike weightlifting which is something anyone can do effectively at any age. That and maybe side effects of HGH.
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I don't think a scientific response is what you are looking for but....
It seems from animal models that growth hormone increases growth speed but not where you end up? Not sure why you hope this is a silver bullet. People are probably dismissive because it doesn't seem to be something that is currently possible. It is of course possible there is an unknown mechanism, but that wouldn't be helpful advice, either. Most men reach their peak height by 16. I certainly wouldn't suggest anyone on an internet forum follow a medical intervention (as you are suggesting with a combination of HGH plus "something to keep the growth plates open") if that medical intervention doesn't actually exist as a testable efficacious thing.
I don't think this is culture war related contempt, like you are implying, but rather just people thinking people are asking for something unreasonable. Like if I went on a similar forum and asked what I could do to turn my eyes purple. In the future, there might be a safe way to inject pigment into the iris or similar, but for now people would tell me to get over it.
There are also plenty of known relationships between adolescent nutrition and final height. IIRC there are some studies (and a bunch of aligning personal anecdotes) that kids that do weight class sports end up stunting their height by trying to stay under a certain weight. But that's not as much "advice for getting taller" as it is counter-advice for being shorter.
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I never got around to reading up on it, but apparently you don't need to look at animal models, as trying to control human height with hormones is a thing that actually happened IRL. If you want a summary, and don't mind reading someone with an axe to grind, Mia Hughes wrote a chapter on it in the WPATH Files (it starts at the bottom of the page: "Engineering Children’s Height With Hormones").
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