Atian_1
21d ago
Interesting to see a real anecdote! I'm really surprised a powerlifting girl couldn't translate the strength to the mat, huh. What do you think if she was also a purple belt? Even then it sounds like she'd only have a slight upper hand, not really black widow performance level.
I mainly watch MCU so, captain america I just explain it was the serum he took. Hawkeye doesn't really do anything all that crazy for a trained man hand to hand, although his coordination is supernatural and I'm not sure how to head canon it. rest of the avengers have obvious superpowers. But black widow isn't supposed to have any, so I have been head canoning that black widow is just a powerlifter who trained combat a bunch but perhaps I'll have to up my head canon...just actually suspend disbelief instead of trying to explain it haha. Maybe she has some mutations or something that aren't enough to be considered an actual mutant, but just in the top 0.001% in every genetic factors that exists relevant to combat. Thus we haven't seen a woman like her in our world but not technically impossible.
Atian_1
21d ago
That is crazy. But look into powerlifting numbers, this is why I'm biased in favor of the trained woman. A powerlifting woman can be quite strong, bench record is 450 and deadlift record is 650. I agree a good male powerlifter is going to be better than elite female ones, but most men are way weaker than a "good" male powerlifter. And most combat athletes, I THINK, are also way weaker than a "good" male powerlifter. Unless all the heavyweights are indeed deadlifting 600+ and benching 400+. Hence, assume black widow is a powerlifting savant and also good at fighting, then it's not unrealistic she does what she does to big dudes who just haven't put in the time to get those kinds of numbers. Maybe it's assuming the powerlifting PLUS fighting skill that's unrealistic, in that how are you going to train both with limited recovery.
That's why I'm saying it's a question of temperament. Women aren't going out and trying to get damn strong for the most part, but they could, hence black widow is not unrealistic, is my argument. Might not be a valid argument. Team sports results surprise me. Those sports probably require fast-twitch ability, and maybe certain kind of coordination is favored in men and not really trainable by women, like innate visual-spatial sense?
Others have mentioned the grip strength data; it's an interesting point in that grip strength seems to be one of those more fundamental things that maybe doesn't change all that much by training it. And like others have argued, women have a lot of those weird little (mostly untrainable) factors against their favor like bone structure, maybe nervous system things / fast twitch, thickness, leverages, inertia, etc. that make raw strength not as useful in combat.
I do think most people seem to be underestimating how strong women can get though.
Atian_1
21d ago
Yeah, and from following weightlifting spaces this is why I couldn't wrap my head around the sentiment, that may be a minority sentiment nonetheless, that untrained men are as strong as trained women. I think it is a question of temperament too, probably an untrained man is stronger than your average fit woman, because that fit woman isn't trying to bulk up significantly and add muscle mass. That being said I've seen some strong girls doing weighted dips and pullups who aren't that bulky just a bit more bulky than a black widow body type. I mean, imagine black widow can bench 450. I think that makes it a lot more likely she can do what she does in the films. Although this Ashleigh Hoeta record-holder probably is taller than black widow I'd think, and doesn't have the time to train combat like black widow does. But still, say black widow benches 250 at least.
What other commenters have been arguing against this point is that, isolated muscle strength doesn't translate into combat prowess in a straightforward way. Black widow might bench 250 but her overall bone structure and weight/inertia make it hard to translate that into actual combat results, in the real world. I could see that, although I'm not totally convinced. Especially if she also deadlifts 400 or something. That's a lot of strength, seems like it should translate, but there are good arguments against it.
Atian_1
21d ago
Huh pretty crazy. I guess there's less variability than I thought, so the average differences didn't sound as big. Figured it would be about 1sd deviation personally.
Atian_1
21d ago
Wow that's crazy wouldn't have thought height gap mattered more than muscle gap.
Atian_1
21d ago
True, some other commenters have mentioned other things matter beside isolated muscle strength, like skull thickness / bone size etc. I wasn't considering that other factors determine how well you can express your isolated muscular strength in combat.
I'd like to think black widow is some kind of mutant on the down low, has some mutations that make her bones denser/thicker, more like a man's, without being enough to actually be considered an MCU mutant. But at that point we are outside the realm of our world's reality anyway. Heck that's what my head canon is for most male action stars like Ethan hunt in mission impossible. I just head canon that he has high bone density mutations and maybe some kind of fast metabolism for healing injuries, but not so much that it isn't possible in our world if all the genetic factors came together in the same person.
Atian_1
21d ago
Hmm yeah, so I think I've been underestimating importance of weight then. I figured if black widow trains some powerlifting lifts, her muscles would be strong enough to manhandle big dudes but I'm not really considering that she has very little inertia herself, so...would be hard to translate that muscular strength into moving the bigger guy's body?
And regarding weapons, yeah, especially in infinity war she's got those electric things and maybe even the suit has some protective qualities idk, those obviously boost fighting ability.
Atian_1
21d ago
Interesting points, so your main point here is that strength as it matters in combat, is not adequately measured by powerlifting numbers. Isolated muscular strength may not be that unequal between men and women, but other factors make it so that practical combat strength is markedly different.
Honestly I'm not trying to get anything out of this, just avengers movies spiked my curiosity regarding this culture-war adjacent topic.
Atian_1
21d ago
makes sense. Too bad though because it would be interesting to see what happens if you take one of the powerlifting freaks, get them to maintain strength as much as possible, and get them proficient at MMA. I know there are some dudes in MMA that would probably have high powerlifting numbers tho, Ngannou probably does.
Atian_1
21d ago
Interesting, that makes sense. Makes me wonder if going from a powerlifting-only background where you spend all your recovery points on weightlifting, to an MMA background where you lift just enough to maintain that strength (or would that still be too much?), could be an athletic history that produces special results? I wonder what would happen if eddie hall just lifted minimally to maintain his strength as much as he could while training 100% MMA or something.
Atian_1
21d ago
yeah, that makes sense. I think people exaggerate sometimes that make it seem like it's literally impossible. I agree with how you put it though.
Also ditto this whole question for small men vs larger men. Look at people like llamar gant, 120 lbs 5'2 and deadlifting pretty much 700 lbs, bench 350 at 130 lbs (with bad leverages, he had severe scoliosis so his arms are actually average-length). Is that dude seriously weaker than average joe at 6'0? Or even 6'5? I mean when you get to that level of strength, you can manhandle anyone no, even if they a foot taller than you?
Like if you can squat the taller dude on your back and regularly throw around 300 lb+ weights in the gym, are you really at much of a disadvantage in a fight? I guess striking you would be due to body length of course.
Is the hard part the statistics that its difficult to get to that level of strength at that height? I just don't see how these things work exactly. Why dont more MMA fighters get to those powerlifting numbers? Llamar gant had the leanness for MMA but the strength for powerlifting, why isn't that combo more common, and why wouldn't it make a big difference going against heavier folk? I'm assuming everyone must be training powerlifting to the same degree and their MMA training just doesn't let them recover well enough to get as strong, pound for pound, as people like llamar gant? A sort of deal where everyone is training equally hard and some are just also bigger than others, thus they win?
How much is genetic and how much is will / desire to be strong? How much is frame size a factor?
Been watching avengers and thinking about black widow, and I hear a lot about how women can't beat men in a fight, how most women are weaker than most men, etc. Seems culture-war adjacent because of the whole trans in sports and such.
Setting aside superpowers, I don't dispute the truth of this fact, and I don't dispute the truth that elite men will be much stronger than elite women, and well-above-average men will be somewhat stronger than elite women, but it seems people take this too far and think even a trained woman can't beat an untrained man, and I don't see why THAT is true.
I've seen a study that said women of the same size as men, on average, will have 50% the upper body strength, 50% grip, 65% leg strength.
Surely these are just average joes and average janes? Do you mean to tell me if the woman trains for a couple years, and is healthy / responsive to training, she wouldn't be stronger than the majority of men that don't train, or are just fooling around in the gym / not really progressively overloading? (to what degree am I overestimating performance of average jane after several years of training? I'm guessing there was a large genetic component to why powerlifting women are so strong? What is the average ceiling for strength for a woman that trains powerlifting AS A HOBBY for a few years?)
Don't most women just avoid actual strength training / bulking out of temperament/desire for their body to look a certain way and not out of inability to do it and see results that would put them above-average for men?
I'm just not that familiar with female athletes, with exception of powerlifting and streetlifting spaces where there were strong women who could do shit like bench 200, squat 400-500, etc while being pretty lean. In retrospect those were probably very elite women, but are you seriously saying average joe is stronger than them?
And, if those women just decided to start learning some MMA for a few years. I could see a black widow-esque level of performance against men who are buff but not trained in MMA, or trained in MMA but not buff? Add in some genetic talent, special training, equipment etc. and it isn't so far fetched to have someone like black widow. Maybe she'd need to be a bit bulkier to be realistic but still.
Are dudes supposed to just walk into a gym, being sedentary, and start benching 200? Is that a normal thing for men? (genuinely asking, I'm a dude but have a very small frame. maybe some big frame people out there just naturally have strength? But again, those wouldn't be average joes.)
How much of this is a question of female temperament? Are they simply not encouraged to weightlift , bulk, or train for combat as frequently? And most MMA girls are mainly training skill and don't have a powerlifting base to build off from? If a 5'10 girl bulked to 180 or so, and does powerlifting as a hobby, how much weaker is she really than an average 5'10 joe who isn't trained? 5'10 criminal joe that comes up to mug her or something, are you really telling me 5'10 powerlifting mma chick doesn't clock him?
Note I am making sure to equate the sizes of the woman and man in question. I'm not making 5'4 hero chick go against 5'10 criminal with ease, but if the sizes are equal I just don't see how the hero chick loses. Although if you make 5'10 criminal (who likely has some training, but doesn't powerlift) into 5'10 average joe, then even against 5'4 powerlifting mma chick...just how much of a disadvantage is the size if strength is equal? It's gonna be a close fight at least, no?
Atian_1
5mo ago
Man that's some weird stuff. Weird world I guess, maybe you are right there is no normal just a weird world. Edit: maybe the people who say they haven't seen or heard anyone see anything weird are the true weird ones?
Atian_1
5mo ago
Interesting regarding the smaller reservoir for emotional stimulation, and more active resting network. I haven't seen it put in those words, "active resting network" before. That seems to be similar to what I experience, in that my thoughts just don't shut down even when I want to rest. Feels like I'm calculating (to what end I don't know) the previous mundane events of the day sometimes, not even in a stressed way but in a doing-arithmetic mechanical sort of way, but I can't shut it off. Unless sometimes like I said, if I do everything else right while also managing to not overthink sleep hygiene. Not sure if that's really emotional processing going on though, more just an instinctive reluctance to let go of active thinking, but perhaps processed by the cerebellum too, idk?
Atian_1
5mo ago
Also, I don't think I put that much into my own well-being right now. It might have sounded like that, but like I said I think I was able to induce anhedonia, which when combined with some momentum makes it seem like you are very disciplined, when you actually aren't. It's some kind of weird cheat code that nobody talks about, but if you can annihilate pleasure you can seem to do a lot of good things for yourself, but think that's a path as wide as a razor's edge and all that. I wouldn't be surprised if some of my issues were because of that forced anhedonia. Now I'm no longer anhedonic, or at least much less so, and I want to try and build discipline/will power and direct it toward improving well-being the right way, but I am definitely lacking in will power and discipline because I coasted for a long time on anhedonia.
Atian_1
5mo ago
Interesting, it is good to have someone else say that it seems like something a 3 year old could imagine on their own. I was probably just searching too hard for a cause for my issues, when I just need to make a series of good choices and such, maybe will not get any hard closure on why my issues happened, no magic bullet of knowledge/memory that will suddenly make it all make sense.
Thank you for sharing and for the encouragement. I do have social anxiety as well actually, I hadn't considered whether or not I'm on the spectrum until now, although if good coordination removes you from that I guess I wouldn't be. I definitely sympathize with keeping the peace among sensitive friends!
I ended up deleting my other post and shortening it because I thought it was too long but I appreciate you reading through it. Interesting suggestion regarding the fan for sleeping, perhaps I will try that. I bought this book that I have yet to read called the effortless sleep method that seems promising, we'll see what it says. My main issue with the abuse thought is that I basically hallucinated an angry stranger with context/framing that I shouldn't really have been able to know as a 3 year old, but also the framing wasn't too outrageous/overtly sexual, so who knows if I somehow overheard something in media accidentally, felt some kind of shame about what I was doing subconsciously, that got incorporated into a hallucination, that's the only nice explanation I can think of. But it is reassuring that at least the masturbation itself isn't too weird at that age.
Atian_1
5mo ago
How likely is it that you were abused as a baby if you were already masturbating at 3 yrs old and while doing so, had a vision of an unfamiliar woman angrily forbidding you to think about girls and telling me to think about boys instead? I ended up straight and disregarded her command, but the vibes felt like some kind of feministic progressive trying to make me gay as a 3 year old?
I also had some UTIs at the time and a fear of bathrooms. I had some nightmares about this woman as well until I was 5-6 or so, not sexual in nature however. My parents do not recall any such person that matched my description of that woman in our lives. Although I feel like if it were anyone, it would have maybe been a preschool substitute teacher? Given that I inexplicably could not use the bathroom at my preschool and had to be held back because of it. How does one explain such a memory then? I've read that early masturbation doesn't necessarily mean abuse, and I didn't seem to have actual knowledge of how sex worked until a normal age. But this memory I have doesn't seem exactly normal either, you know? And I acquired a lot of issues as I grew up, not sexual but physical and mental and am trying to figure out why I am so objectively weird and have so many problems.
Atian_1
5mo ago
Apologies but if you have the time, what do you mean by "Good is less important than discipline, and since discipline is only visible by outcomes that are beyond ones control, performative performance is a visible proxy." What is performative performance a proxy for, and why is discipline only visible by outcomes that are beyond ones control? I thought discipline in this context would be doing the cog work diligently, which is in ones control? Not disagreeing or agreeing with you, just trying to understand better. And I agree that if we're all cogs then a cog that buys into the corpospeak is going to be preferred over a cog that doesn't, if I understand you, you are basically competing for who has most allegience to the mission? Incentivizing allegiance to the mission?
Atian_1
5mo ago
If you haven't tried, what might help is trying one or two days of a really high-fiber diet, where you eat in one day include the following: 3-4 fruits, whole grains only, 2 cans of beans, and a carrot. That gives you about 60 grams of fiber right there, not sure what your diet currently looks like fiber wise. But if things haven't been working for 2 weeks shocking the system with a sudden jump in fiber might help. Could add another can of beans for another 15 grams of fiber. Not sure if this is the right strategy for you though but it could be something to try.
Atian_1
5mo ago
How much of an issue is heavy metal contamination of supplements? My family and I eat a large amount of supplements and plant protein powders. I have a lot of tendonitis and sleep problems. (Skipping the supplements hasn't seemed to change anything, but I'm not sure if years of taking them has done semi-permanent changes. I also have not stopped the plant protein powders yet). My family doesn't have these issues but I'm the only one that eats plant protein powders, so perhaps it's the protein powders and not the supplements that are contaminated. Is it worth testing for heavy metals? Which metals? I'm seeing my endo again this winter and might get them to do these tests for me.
Atian_1
5mo ago
Just want to tell you you're not alone, I have done many of the same things (dimming the laptop screen a lot to make it hard to read even though I'm literally just using it to take notes in class, video game hiding despite not being anything weird or wrong). These are weird things to do I think, and I have done them, although perhaps I'm different than you in that I have not done them as much with family, as I tend to let this "guard" down once I really get to know someone/they are family. I agree it's a bit of a liability, so I am curious what people say in the comments regarding how to get past it. Keep in mind I am only in my early 20s and only recently has it occurred to me this is something that is a problem, so don't feel bad that I haven't moved past it yet, and probably only recently you have really started to consider this a liability. I believe it can be moved past, let's see what people suggest.
I'm skeptical of your criticism of the consensus, but not writing you off either. I love a good controversy and like to steelman contrarian ideas myself, thanks for this very interesting post. Something I've been thinking about a lot lately with regard to other topics, but may apply here too, is that if "something" isn't effective in expectation, but anecdotal wisdom seems to suggest that there's something to it, then perhaps "something" is too broad of a category, and some sub-category is indeed effective in expectation. Whether that means restricting "something" to only some subset of the population, or changing/improving the techniques involved in "something" altogether because perhaps "something" as we defined it includes too many different techniques, some of which don't work.
Perhaps your argument that the correct way to do it was lost to time, or perhaps your argument that this practice was only effective when applied to a certain gene pool, maybe that pool got diluted over time, hence we have a bunch of ineffective ACD. What we're calling ACD may be too broad. Although like you said we probably don't have many samples of cranial capacity, maybe ACD was effective in expectation for any human.
More options
Context Copy link