This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
"Correct" and "incorrect" are relative to the government's purposes in having the mark on the document. Often this is to aid in identification of the person presenting the document but the marks can serve other purposes. In the case of height, having a listed one dramatically different than your apparent one would be a problem for using it to identify you. So they try to keep the height listed on your document close to your apparent height (as determined by yardstick).
In the case of gender, I would argue that it’s at least in part about safety. Men are orders of magnitude stronger than women, and given that most instances of stranger rape occur in private spaces, keeping natal males out of women’s restrooms, changing rooms, and sleeping areas is simply the best way to prevent rapes in those spaces.
Height and weight are more about proof of identity in general. If you match 5/5 of the identifying characteristics listed on your ID, it’s pretty clear it’s your ID.
No, they're not 100x stronger. Did you mean multiple standard deviations stronger?
Yeah, misspoke, sorry. But the point being that unless a woman is basically a semi-pro athlete (let’s say that she’d be competitive in a small school college sports program) her chances of successfully defending herself against a minimally athletic male in a one on one situation is fairly small. It’s why I basically laugh at the “learn self defense for women” programs. Unless you’re seriously training and competing in combat sports you aren’t going to have enough skill to win out against a male with enough extra muscle mass to manhandle her.
Isn’t ‘self defense for women’ basically ‘don’t be shy, kick him in the nuts and run away’?
I’ve heard that ‘kick him in the nuts’ is very bad advice because they aren’t vital (unlike eyes, say) and the pain is basically washed away by adrenaline and just makes him angrier. Works against a dweeb who’s being pushy, but not against somebody accosting you in an alley.
It's also bad advice because you're unlikely to hit them. It takes a fairly small movement to take the impact on the large muscle of the thigh instead. And now he can grab your leg.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
The governments purposes for tracking sex should not be about the feelings of the individual being tracked, but about keeping accurate records for the census, crime, and other statistics. I'd say that having a listed sex other than your apparent (actual) one is a major problem.
More options
Context Copy link
What are the purposes of such marks when it comes to private service providers, say, like amusement parks and emergency rooms?
It depends on the private service providers own policies and what kinds of obligations the government may have created for them.
The only reason the above case exists is because the government created a legal obligation for private service providers to treat people a certain way based on the mark on their official documentation. As far as I know there is no similar legal requirement to treat people a certain way based on their height. If there was, then a similar lawsuit against an amusement park may very well be successful!
In the emergency room context the only purpose a sex classification serves is as a shorthand for certain other biological facts that may be relevant for treatment. If you already know those other biological facts it's not clear to me what further information one is getting from someone's legal sex classification. In any case doctors should determine medical treatments on the basis of the relevant biology, not the legal sex classification. Indeed it's easy for me to imagine a scenario where a doctor denying someone treatment on the basis of their legal sex classification, rather than their biology, would be the basis for a sex discrimination lawsuit! Imagine a trans woman goes to a doctor and requests a prostate exam. Perhaps she has or hasn't had bottom surgery but in any case still has a prostate. The doctor refuses on the grounds her relevant identity document says she is female, though the doctor does acknowledge she has a prostate. I think such a doctor would likely lose a sex discrimination lawsuit. After all, if she had shown up as someone with "male" on their identity document and with a prostate the doctor would presumably have performed the exam. She was denied a treatment relevant to her biology because of her legal classification. Sounds like sex discrimination to me!
One could just as easily say that in a digital app setting, the only purpose a government sex classification serves is as a shorthand for certain other biological facts that may be relevant for treatment. If you already know those other biological facts it's not clear to me what further information one is getting from someone's legal sex classification. In any case apps should determine digital treatments on the basis of the relevant biology, not the legal sex classification. Where does your argument fail?
What is the "treatment" in this context and what is the relevant biology? In the medical context treatments very straightforwardly interact with a patient's biology. That's the point. What's the app analogue?
Don't need an analog, at least not according to the standard you've set forth. You just said that the "only purpose" a government sex classification serves is as a shorthand. They saw the shorthand, they determined that other facts were known, and they used the other facts. Amusement parks did it, emergency rooms did it, and digital apps did it. Unless you have some extra, currently hidden government purpose, these cases seem precisely analogous for the test you've set forth. There's nothing in your current test that says that some sorts are okay and other sorts aren't.
I very specifically said that sex markers were a shorthand in the emergency room context you mentioned. That is not the only reason they are there!
Then by all means, please describe the additional government purposes you have in mind.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link