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PaperclipPerfector  3mo ago (text post)   30108 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 12, 2024

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In the past cultures have put guidelines on a woman's appearance, without negotiating with women about it. And now the shoe is simply on the other foot: women's visible sexual qualities are a man's problem, and he should simply ignore the bombardment of visual stimulation as women largely fail to realize just how potent the stimuli are because men have been socialized into silence on the matter. There's gotta be something in the middle.

Why do you think women fail to realize that men are visually stimulated? We're told this constantly. We're told that if a man acts out, it's because of what a woman wore, how she looked. Sure, men shouldn't rape, but did you see what she was wearing?

Given different cultural standards in modesty and dress, I don't believe that cleavage, breasts, legs, or any particular piece of a woman's body is just instant "brain off, hormones gone crazy" for men. It's all what we're used to.

We're told that if a man acts out, it's because of what a woman wore, how she looked. Sure, men shouldn't rape, but did you see what she was wearing?

I have only ever seen this used to denounce hypothetical bad people who might think such an abhorrent thought. I have never seen someone actually state this.

It's generally not actually stated in those stark terms, these days. People try to avoid being seen to blame the victim. But the subtext is definitely still there more often than it should be.

One of my husband's acquaintances is That Guy. The guy who says he can't help but leer at women on the beach, because of what they're wearing (actually on the beach). Not notice and keep it in mind for later thinking or whatever over, but rudely staring in a creepy way. Who'll defend his behavior, because she's wearing a two piece, or is particularly well endowed, or whatever excuse to make his behavior absolutely outside of his control, because of her.

Every single woman I know has been told, more than once, to change what she's wearing because it'll send the wrong message. Which is goofy, because we also know we're going to get catcalled/propositioned/groped wearing a hoodie and jeans, so damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Why do you think women fail to realize that men are visually stimulated? We're told this constantly. We're told that if a man acts out, it's because of what a woman wore, how she looked. Sure, men shouldn't rape, but did you see what she was wearing?

Here it is, women's favorite motte and bailey. Yes, if a man rapes a woman he is responsible for it no matter what she is wearing. However, what you wear is signaling. Wearing clothing that draws attention to your sexual characteristics and then complaining when people give you sexual attention (eg, lewding, catcalling) is sexual harassment. On your end. You initiated it, you are responsible for it.

"Clothing that draws attention to your sexual characteristics" is very culturally relative. Fundamentalist Muslims aren't lying when they say they think women who aren't in burkas are flaunting their sexuality, and even in relatively liberal Muslim countries like Egypt (where a hijab is not required, just "strongly encouraged"), women not wearing hijabs are subject to levels of abuse and catcalling that would make New York steelworkers blush. (And incidentally, even conservatively dressed women don't get much less harassment because once you accept that you can determine a woman's modesty and how much she deserves harassment based on how she dresses, it's easy to rationalize that even women in full burkas are doing something to deserve it.)

There is definitely clothing that is intentionally meant to draw male attention, but if women have a motte and bailey, so do men whose motte is "drawing attention to your sexual characteristics" and whose bailey is "dressing in any way that I notice, especially if the bitch isn't with me."

I mostly agree with this and would say that both extremes here are bad, but I believe that in the West women are getting away with more than men in this case. For instance, women who wear shirts like this should be recognized as doing so to harass men and such harassment should be punished to a greater extent than it currently is.

I really don't think you want to establish a precedent of labeling message t-shirts "harassment" because you think they are meant to annoy you. And how exactly would you like women who wear it to be "punished"?

I really don't think you want to establish a precedent of labeling message t-shirts "harassment" because you think they are meant to annoy you.

That's already the precedent for men with message t-shirts. EDIT: Or rather, the harassment isn't in the message itself, it's in the fact that simply looking at where the message is written is a social faux pas.

And how exactly would you like women who wear it to be "punished"?

I already said above, they shouldn't be granted the additional protections against "sexual" harassment that women are typically given. They are giving shit, they should expect to deal with it given in return. EDIT: Importantly in this case, if you don't want people staring at your chest, don't put words there.

That's already the precedent for men with message t-shirts. EDIT: Or rather, the harassment isn't in the message itself, it's in the fact that simply looking at where the message is written is a social faux pas.

I've seen plenty of women wearing message t-shirts. And I have looked at their t-shirts long enough to read said messages. I've never been accused of harassing them. If you keep staring at her tits while talking to her, she might perhaps feel harassed, though I think this is imagined by men far more often than it actually happens that a guy looks too long at a woman's chest and gets berated for it.

I think you are making up scenarios where women print a message on their t-shirts and then report any man caught reading it to HR. I think you are also pretending that people can't tell the difference between your eyes falling on someone's shirt long enough to check out the message on it, and your eyes being glued to her chest.

As long as it's considered harassment for men to read the message, there's no worse precedent set by labeling women wearing the shirt also "harassment".

Reading the message isn't harassment.

Of course it is. "Eww, that creepy guy was harassing me; he was staring at my tits!"

No, what I wear is clothing. Your interpretation is your problem. Your behavior is yours to control.

You can be sexually stimulated without acting on it (physically or vocally).

I know Chappelle is persona non grata to one half of the cultural fence these days but comedy is comedy.

Don't know if you heard about this controversy, but I was wondering what would be your opinion about this charming bloke showing up dressed like that at a conference. Apparently it caused quite a stir, particularly from feminists.

Your choice in what to wear is expressive speech in the "freedom of speech" sense of the term. Wear whatever you want in private. In public, your choice in what to wear is communication and if your communication is not respectful to those around you then don't expect respect in return.

Why do you think women fail to realize that men are visually stimulated? We're told this constantly. We're told that if a man acts out, it's because of what a woman wore, how she looked. Sure, men shouldn't rape, but did you see what she was wearing?

This may have been a point worth hearing in the past, but it seems wildly out of date by now. Anyone even thinking of trying to use that argument in public would immediately catch a ton of shit. Maybe a recent Muslim immigrant could get away with it, though it will probably depend on what his politics are.

I wish it were wildly out of date.

Girls and women are very clearly told that what we wear makes us responsible for men's behavior towards us.

See the comment above: "Wearing clothing that draws attention to your sexual characteristics and then complaining when people give you sexual attention (eg, lewding, catcalling) is sexual harassment. On your end. You initiated it, you are responsible for it."

What's clothing that draws attention to our sexual characteristics? Anything that makes it clear we have breasts, legs, butt, any part of our anatomy a man might find arousing.

That's not really the same as "Sure, men shouldn't rape, but did you see what she was wearing?". Also a niche forum founded for the explicit purpose of debating controversial opinions is not a good barometer for what's socially acceptable. Show me someone saying that face to face in polite company, or even just on some mainstream Reddit sub.

Girls and women are very clearly told that what we wear makes us responsible for men's behavior towards us.

And men are told that it is fine to creep shame us if what we wear makes women uncomfortable. So which is it? Are people responsible for what they choose to wear or not?

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