site banner
PaperclipPerfector  3mo ago (text post)   32893 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 5, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

And OP was probably thinking of deliberately not providing that information for fear of it becoming identifiable.

Well, sure, but I would have thought that the name of a city by itself wouldn't be enough to make him identifiable, and since the content of the post is a complaint about his local neighbourhood, I feel that knowing where that neighbourhood is, at least in very broad terms, is relevant to understanding the complaint.

...I feel that knowing where that neighbourhood is, at least in very broad terms, is relevant to understanding the complaint.

While I share some curiosity about the matter, I don't know that it's relevant. Have we not all experienced basically the same thing across many different cities? Deranged and drug-addled bums coddled by NGOs that make endless excuses for them aren't unique to a single city. This is so common that it would be more interesting to me if someone called out a city where they've never seen such a thing.

Have we not all experienced basically the same thing across many different cities?

No, I haven't. Currently living in Denver, CO and I have yet to see the kind of things OP described. I agree with @OliveTapenade that it is beneficial to the discussion to say where one is talking about. No shame if someone declines to specify, of course, but it's perfectly reasonable to ask

I just google Denver, CO homeless camps and got tons of articles, videos and photos of them(I suspect Denver was not always like this, my city wasn't). I then googled Denver homeless crime, and while I will admit it is very narrow in its focus, the article titled

Crime calls up 2,900% at hotel converted to homeless shelter in Denver

stood out.

The OP mentioned a car break in, so I tried to google that,

DENVER — After leading the nation in stolen vehicles, including a staggering 98 percent increase over a 5-year period the latest data show Colorado vehicle thefts dropped in 2023, a trend that has continued into the current year.

I tried to find stats on just breaking into cars to steal stuff, but all my google searches were swamped with, leading the nation in auto theft, articles (I even checked page 2)

Which is all to say, for all I know OP lives in Denver.

None of which changes the fact that I, as a person who lives here, has not experienced what OP is saying. Homeless people are around (and have been for the decade I've lived here), but the camps are not super common and get broken up by police from time to time. I've never seen a homeless person committing crimes. I've never had my car stolen, nor has anyone I know.

Stats are all well and good. I'm not even saying your stats are wrong. But the claim I was responding to was "we've all experienced this", and the answer is "no we haven't". Just because something is happening statistically does not mean it is actually affecting the experience of people.

It's not something I've experienced personally, though I've heard enough similar stories about urban decay in the United States that it's not an unfamiliar genre to me. The stories I have heard, though, suggest to me that the region is relevant, insofar as it lets us draw some conclusions around different states, governments, and policies.

So I guess I think it is relevant, if only because I can't think of much to say about the idea that an unknown city in an unknown country with an unknown government and unknown social fabric has a problem with drug addicts. That's not even a data point, surely?

The top level poster is under no obligation to tell me, of course - though then I'm free to find the initial complaint rather pointless.

This is so common that it would be more interesting to me if someone called out a city where they've never seen such a thing.

Basically any city in Poland? You get some homeless but they are not aggressive. And most they smell, and you have trouble with that maybe once a year. In last 20 years the most aggressive were touts, when I was with foreign friends and speaking in English. Once I was slightly kicked by someone but that was some drunk woman and not homeless/drug bum.

(secret recipe is likely being poor so migrants will go elsewhere)

Goes for at least the parts of Stockholm I'm familiar with as well (which isn't too much admittedly). And migrants definitely do come here.

My best guess is that this is more of an American problem due to drugs coming through their southern border.

Well, sure, but I would have thought that the name of a city by itself wouldn't be enough to make him identifiable

What's the benefit for him, of narrowing down his identity from 1 in 300M to 1 in 10K - 1M (probably a lot less given the other details he brought up)?

I feel that knowing where that neighbourhood is, at least in very broad terms, is relevant to understanding the complaint.

I don't. The nature of his complaint is crystal clear. I can understand the value of the extra info in verifying that what he's complaining about is actually happening, but it's not like proving that conclusively will change anyone's mind in about the wider implications.

Nothing in the top-level post indicates he's in the United States - I don't even know which country he's talking about.

You are glowing.

Antagonistic and low effort. Knock it off.

Which only means that his relative exposure would increase even more, if he told you the city he's at...

i dont care if the guy takes whatever steps he sees fit to protect his anonymity, but if you want to seriouspost about how the fundamental fabric of society is crumbling around you it becomes really easy to just make shit up if you are talking about a vague area that may or may not be in north america.

For all i know i live in the same exact town as that guy and the way i see it he's being a big baby about non-problems. Of course i'm not calling him a sky-is-falling chicken little, because i don't know whether i'm his neighbor or not.

It's pretty clear through the entire post that this is the subjective opinion of one man. It's your right to be skeptical, but knowing where he lives would bring nothing of value to the conversation.

Suppose the post comes with irrefutable proof that everything he wrote is true, how would your behavior change? If the answer is "not much" you have no right to demand he releases personal information.

Sorry man. I live in a blue state that's already started "hate speech watchlists," and has Seattle Antifa goons running publicly funded doxxing rings to get burger king cashiers fired.

I'm already retarded for posting on this site without being behind seven proxies, and mentioning identifiable details would be dropping bait in a shark tank.

I can't even talk about most of my irl hobbies or anything to do with work without making it trivial to pick me out of the entire county population. One bit of info about work would narrow it down to about two hundred people, and a second about hobbies would give you a shortlist of half a dozen names.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats