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PaperclipPerfector  3mo ago (text post)   32903 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 5, 2024

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(choice moment: the rioter responding with 2 fingers when asked how many brain cells he has)

You’re aware that this is a rude gesture, right? If someone asked me that question, I’d likely respond with one finger, but it would be a horrible misinterpretation to assume that I meant I only had one brain cell.

The middle finger is less likely to be misinterpreted as "one" because people don't usually count starting from the middle finger.

I wouldn’t say it’s any less likely, but rather that both are equally unlikely. Neither gesture admits of any reasonable interpretation other than the one that was intended, at least not to a British audience.

When you own yourself, you own yourself.

Yes, I am aware it is a rude gesture (dating back to the time just after Agincourt when the English archers stuck up their two fingers at the French to show they would continue to shoot at them; likely the person who made this gesture wouldn't know this, I'd be surprised if they could name even the war in which Agincourt happened), however that doesn't mean it's any less stupid to do this when there is an alternative reasonable interpretation that makes you look very stupid.

  • -34

You may be missing some uniquely UK context here, being a late arrival to our fair shores and having no familial history of time we last stood alone in WW2.

It's not actually anything to do with Agincourt, it's from much later (possibly related to a cuckold's horns - calling your opponent a cuckold is an old sport - there's a brilliant banner from our civil war on the topic) but no one appears to have a definitive answer to its real origins other than the earliest photograph is from 1901 (it doesn't even appear in cartoons or drawings before). It was used a lot during WW2 as a more mocking form of the V for victory when we were standing alone against invasion, playing on Churchil's use of the symbol, and can be summarized as "Up yours".

It always signals disrepect, defiance (typically of authority) and a general "fuck off". It's not a number or related to archery, and it seems a bit... uncharitable to assume others are stupid here especially if you yourself are running off an urban legend yourself. The meaning is clear.

Interesting. I did not know the Agincourt origins were an urban legend. You learn stuff every day. I freely admit that I was misinformed and thank you for helping me improve my model of the world.

It always signals disrepect

Now this is a bit too strong a statement. For one the two fingers sign also symbolizes bunny ears so it doesn't always mean disrespect. I have fond memories of pranking friends with think back in my carefree youthful days.

It's not a number

This I also disagree with. Holding the index and middle finger up is the British sign language method of indicating two.

Churchill

Extremely overrated Prime Minister of the UK. I have no idea why he commonly comes near the top of the UK's list of PMs. Sure he got the country through WWII but there was nothing exceptional about him personally that led to this. He provided competent governance in difficult times and little more (see what happened the second time he became PM). It was the times he lived through that made him notable rather than the reverse. Had WWII not happened he'd be almost as forgettable as Henry Campbell-Bannerman. Even the Marquess of Salisbury was a tier above Churchill.

For one the two fingers sign also symbolizes bunny ears so it doesn't always mean disrespect. I have fond memories of pranking friends with think back in my carefree youthful days.

Bunny ears (at least in the UK) would be with a pronated hand position i.e. palm facing away. The gesture of disrespect is with the palm facing inwards.

This I also disagree with. Holding the index and middle finger up is the British sign language method of indicating two.

I've never seen someone indicate two with the palm facing inwards.

I (American) remember ordering two beers at an English pub, holding up two fngers, palm-inward, and being told by the bartender something to the effect of "Mate, never do that. Palm facing me."

I've never seen someone indicate two with the palm facing inwards.

That's literally the sign for two in BSL, see the linked page which has a photo of a person making the sign.

And I'm saying I've never seen that gesture used that way. And I've seen plenty of people using two fingers to indicate two.

I don't know BSL and if that's the official sign then that's the official sign, I guess. Although I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the person responsible for that website just googled "person displaying two fingers" and used the first image that came up.

They've got photos for all the BSL symbols in the same artistic style so it's not just random internet photos but rather images specifically made for the page. For instance here's the page for cat: https://www.british-sign.co.uk/british-sign-language/how-to-sign/cat/

I think it's pretty clear two fingers palm inward is indeed the BSL sign for the number 2.

however that doesn't mean it's any less stupid to do this when there is an alternative reasonable interpretation that makes you look very stupid.

Your alternative interpretation is not, in fact, reasonable. Neither the recorder nor his audience nor you nor I are at all confused about the meaning of the gesture. Pretending otherwise is just another example of waging the culture war.

Wow, you're really smart, mister.

This adds nothing. Don't do this.

@BurdensomeCount's comment can be boiled down to "please allow me an additional paragraph to sneer at the proles." What better response is there than to sneer back? It's certainly not a ban-worthy comment but is genuinely deserving of some mockery. I considered writing up a sincere rebuttal (honestly, the alternative reasonable interpretation probably makes it a better rude gesture) before deciding that this conversation probably is not the place for sincerity.

Comment length can be an okay proxy for comment quality but they are not the same thing, and my comment was less snide and spiteful than the one I was responding to.

Yah well he might be banned for his sneering, so do you want the same treatment that he gets?

He won't be banned for the comment I responded to nor should he be, and my response to that comment was still less banworthy. Failing a ban, social censure is the next best response.

He won't be banned for the comment I responded to

Disagree

nor should he be

Disagree

my response to that comment was still less banworthy.

Agree

Failing a ban, social censure is the next best response.

Agree, which is why I'm saying it was bad.

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