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PaperclipPerfector  4mo ago (text post)   3334 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for July 21, 2024

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

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Is it legal for a community to create something like a social credit score to exclude people who aren’t part of the community?

For instance, say the requirements of the community are you must attend church regularly and not commit certain crimes (like theft). After you attend church for a while and avoid being convicted of any crimes then you are considered a member in good standing within the community.

The community has businesses like a grocery store where the market value of everything is multiplied by 100 (so an item that normally sells for $3 is priced at $300). If you are a member in good standing you get a 99% discount and are only charged $3.

Also, in this community you agree that if you sell property (such as a house) you will use the same pricing scheme so effectively it can only be sold to members in good standing of the community. If you fail to maintain good standing in the community then you agree that you will physically leave the community.

IIRC the mormon church operates kind of like this- member's behavior is tracked and the benefits available to members(which do exist) are contingent on meeting the expectations of the community.

I was thinking of this when I wrote the post, but I wasn't sure how the Mormon community operationally does this. It seems like it is more of a social norm to shun/socially-stigmatize ex-members than it being an explicit code of conduct that is causing this.

I'm wondering if you could explicitly achieve this legally with a financially incentivized code of conduct that all members agree to (as opposed to being an unwritten social norm).

Then I'm wondering if you could legally use a code of conduct like this in a secular community. People just want to agree to shared moral values and exclude people who don't agree with those values, without needing to have any shared religious beliefs.

Our code of conduct is basically:

  1. Keep the law of chastity (sex only within heterosexual marriage, no porn, etc.)
  2. Keep the word of wisdom (no beer, recreational drugs, coffee, tea)
  3. Tithe (10% of income)
  4. Generally don't do big evil things such as murder, abuse, or fraud
  5. Generally, believe in God and keep the commandments, of course.

There are 2 levels of violation. If you do something minor like swear, lie, slack off, insult someone, etc., you're fine. The least bad thing that will lead to consequences is generally a violation of the law of chastity, meaning you looked at porn and then confessed this to the bishop. This may, but usually doesn't, lead to certain consequences for a few weeks, which we call disfellowship. Despite the name, it's a private matter, but while disfellowshipped you're not supposed to take the sacrament (our name for what Catholics call the communion), give talks in church, exercise the priesthood (for example by giving someone a blessing), or go to the temple. Recurring drug or porn use will probably get you disfellowshipped, fornication almost certainly will.

Excommunication is the more serious level, reserved for things like adultery and murder. It's much the same as disfellowshipping except that your membership in the church is formally revoked and you need to get rebaptized to get your privileges back.

I honestly don't think there's much of a norm to shun ex-members. Most of my best friends are not members, and I am probably more devout than the average member.

This code of conduct is not really comparable to a secular version though. There's virtually no secular benefit to keeping the code of conduct, and the only enforcement mechanism for all but the most serious sins is one's own conscience. There's not really any realistic way to force people to be honest about private matters, so any attempt to create a financially incentivized code of conduct will explicitly pit people's honesty against money. I doubt it lasts long against bad actors. There's no shortcut to creating a healthy culture, nor is any method guaranteed to produce one.

The knights of Columbus manage to maintain honesty with (fairly minor) financial benefits, but granted, most of what they would kick you out over is either public record or unhideable.

  1. Check. Hmm, probably mostly.
  2. Annd I'm out
  3. Well I'm already out, so.
  4. Check
  5. Hmm

Is this Mormon? JW? I know only superficially anything about either. You needn't answer, of course.

Mormon

The Mormons totally have an explicit code of conduct enforced by church disciplinary structures, and I believe we have some mormons and ex-mormons who can explain in further detail.

In general lacking the ability to participate in a high demand religion seems like it operationally breaks social bonds with membership of that high demand religion, so the shunning is part and parcel of the whole thing.

For another religious example, the knights of Columbus offer very cheap life insurance for members and require members to live a lifestyle in accordance with all of the rules of the Catholic church. They will totally kick members out for not really going to church anymore, remarriage after divorce, etc. It's not entirely clear that the knights of Columbus couldn't expand their offerings, but for now the only benefits are minor or community based.

As far as a secular example, I know of a country club which is only open to white men or married women, no gays, de-facto income requirement, no drug use. I'm not clear what non-community based benefits they offered. Greek life(fraternity/sorority) also routinely requires things like church attendance and moral character, and does offer benefits to members. I think owning a chic-fil-a franchise requires joining a private club with conditions similar to what you describe, as well.

Technically it's legal to have a private club with whatever requirements you want. Minimum social credit score private clubs offering large benefits to membership seem like a potential growth market if the trust/coordination problems can be resolved.

Redlining with extra steps. Generally a court will see through schemes like this. Unless they don't want to.

Isn't this adjacent to how co-op operate? Co-op buildings or supermarkets.

What if the difference between what a non-member and good standing member pay is much smaller? The non-member is just charged market value +1%. What is the threshold for the court viewing it as an illegal scheme?

Business are allowed to donate goods/services, universities are allowed to offer scholarships. So why can't a business choose to offer lower prices to people they view as moral and higher prices to people who haven't sufficiently demonstrated good moral character?

What is the threshold for the court viewing it as an illegal scheme?

If the charge structure doesn't match the Progressive stack it's illegal.
In its simplest form, it would be illegal to charge women more than men, but not the reverse.

Charging women more than men is legal and common- it’s standard practice for things like haircuts and dry cleaning.

Do women get charged more than men when they bring an entirely male-coded set of clothes to the dry cleaner or ask for a crewcut at the hairdresser where you live?

I don’t know what lesbians pay for their haircuts. I do know that barbershops prominently display prices as ‘men’s’ ‘women’s’ ‘kids’.

I don’t know what lesbians pay for their haircuts. I do know that barbershops prominently display prices as ‘men’s’ ‘women’s’ ‘kids’.

Femmes go to regular women’s hairdressers, butches usually go to quirky, queer-friendly barbers staffed by tattooed men with beards and lumberjack shirts.

it would be illegal to charge women more than men, but not the reverse

This is not clear to me. My sense is that you could construct a scheme where you can do this. For instance, by a) not using corporate structures, b) using your own money supply, which you mint and control. And worse comes to worse, c) using a different jurisdiction.

...but then you could still be charged with something like racketeering or creating some sort of conspiracy? I don't know.

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