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Notes -
What are blue tribe normies like?
I have a pretty good vision in my head of red tribers. Into music that plays on the country station, whether or not it’s country, he drives a truck if he can afford it(and sometimes if he can’t), might tell black jokes but isn’t particularly racist, big believer in the benefits of sports even if not actually a participant therein, thinks the anti-trump law fare is trumped up BS, she thinks she should be into gardening and babies even if she’s not, everyone believes Christianity is true even if not really practicing or a strict literalist, etc.
What are normie blue tribers like? Like I’m pretty sure resistance twitterati are not very representative.
Normie is in the eye of the beholder, but here an amalgation of my male friends and coworkers:
A portrait of a male normie blue triber
works in a highly credentialed field, probably went to university
But it's "something useful" (as judged by himself)
Could earn more, but took a pay cut to work somewhere he believes in
Has a gf who is much further left than him, and studied something that he normally has a low opinion of (but she's different, obviously)
(mostly) vegetarian when cooking for himself, but might eat meat when going out
Is really into some solo sport like rock climbing or long distance running which he does with a group of friend, is well in shape
Strongly disagrees with the far left on most practical policies, but believes them often when they scream Nazi/Misogynist/etc
Very conscientious, agreeable & reliable
Materialist Atheist, but it's important for him not being an ass about it
every immigrant he knows well is also credentialed and similarly conscientious, so he has a strongly positive opinion about them
Thinks we need to do something about immigration, but in practice is against all policies except cracking down on proven criminals or more support for integration
Thinks BG3 is the pinnacle of gaming
Goes on lots of vacations, all over the world; He really likes talking about the three months he spent backpacking through India
Really liked GoT, Dark, House of Cards, Inception ...
Plays board games once a week with the same group of friends
Thinks he is not elitist, but will always default to expert opinion (and doesn't see any contradiction here)
Used to be against it, but is now in favor of nuclear energy
Has at most 2 kids, shares obligations 50/50 with the wife on the first kid but not the second
Felt insulted by the bear question and thinks women who answered bear are stupid and/or crazy
Often struggles with the concept of some people just not giving a shit
Isn't blank-slatist, but thinks that group differences are vaguely problematic
Knows that women and men are different, but thinks that the differences are overstated and still substantially influenced by culture
I can do the same for a modal normie female blue triber if you're interested, she is quite different.
Good portrait. Now do a male normie red triber.
The red tribe has significantly more regional and religious- and sometimes ethnic- variation amongst itself than the blue tribe, although it partially makes up for it by having a bit less generational variation. For a young-ish male red tribe normie of nonspecific ethnic background and lackluster religiosity in Texas-
Listens to mostly music that plays on country radio, possibly including Taylor Swift if no one is around(I've seen coworkers hurriedly skip songs in their playlists to hide this). Probably has classic songs on his personal playlist- definitely some older country(think Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson, etc) and probably some classic rock or maybe hip hop(think eminem, not gangster rap). Agrees with his elders that modern pop culture and media mostly pushes bad messages and that's deplorable, but probably thinks country music and maybe some science fiction is a partial exception. Probably doesn't read too many books, or catch the latest movie releases, but almost certainly plays video games at least casually.
Very proud that his job is useful and productive, and willing to explain exactly how. Is upset at people who do nothing useful yet command high salaries, like HR ladies. Probably thinks his boss is useful, earned his position, and deserves his salary, but thinks his boss's boss is an overpaid jackass who needs to get his nose out of a spreadsheet and deal with the real world. Biggest complaint about work is likely not getting paid enough.
Sharply negative opinion of 'wokeness'. Thinks it's utterly retarded at best and more likely to be evil. Thinks anti-white hatred is a threat and may or may not connect wokeness with communism. Definitely doesn't believe in straight or male privilege and possibly a little bit uncomfortable with homosexuality, definitely thinks trannies(and he calls them that) are mentally ill. Still, unless he's particularly religious, he probably isn't socially conservative enough for the religious right. He likely thinks both parties are extreme on abortion, that casual sex is morally wrong but that waiting for marriage is ridiculous, and the death penalty is an obvious right. Very pro gun rights.
Is a Christian- in decreasing order of likelihood, an Evangelical, a Catholic, "other Christian", Mormon, and mainline. Believes the bible is the truest thing ever written, and knows he should pay more attention to it, and probably feels guilty for not going to church every Sunday. But God is forgiving, he's pretty sure that's written in the bible somewhere.
Really likes it when he gets to interact with or supervise elementary school-age boys(about 6 to 11, for non-Americans), but might be a bit less sold on other kids. Being a volunteer coach, scoutmaster, etc, is something he'd happily do. Wants kids and expects to eventually make financial sacrifices for the possibility, is possibly frustrated by the modern dating market and probably a bit scared by today's divorce laws. Still, if he's got a good woman and he's in the situation to get married, you can't be scared of everything.
Expects his girlfriend's father to care a great deal about how much money he makes and not much about how reputable his job is, barring outliers like strip club manager or NFL quarterback. Is aware that buying that ring without her father's blessing is a serious faux pas. Expects to carry on a much more socially conservative lifestyle in practice after he gets married, and finds it suspect to seriously date a woman you're unwilling to marry if she gets pregnant.
Believes sports are important, even if he doesn't participate in any(and that might be obvious from his physique). Follows football but probably is only peripherally aware of basketball and says baseball has 'too many games'. Definitely fishes, might go golfing, possibly thinks he should get into soccer but he doesn't. He thinks hunting is cool but doesn't go unless someone invites him. Owns a gun either way, and thinks responsible citizens(like himself) should have wide latitude to carry concealed and use guns in self defense.
Strongly supports the police and military even if he hasn't personally served. Won't hesitate to recommend enlistment to a young man who seems a bit lost in life.
Is very upset about inflation and the cost of housing, for which he mostly blames democrats. Is not vaccinated and opinions of the covid response run along the spectrum from 'hysterical, neurotic, and possibly psychotic in the clinical sense' to 'actually evil'. Strong supporter of Gov. Abbott's border behavior and wishes he'd confront the federal government like that to build nuclear power plants. Might question universal suffrage after a drink or two, but isn't quite sure how the franchise should be restricted. Supports a retirement age for politicians.
Doesn't approve of Trump's personal behavior, but doesn't think he's done anything that would be illegal if normal people did it. Might think some of the January 6 prisoners are being prosecuted unfairly, but probably not all of them. Is aware that democracy is decaying and firmly blames democrats and particularly Trump derangement syndrome; his elders talk about communism and socialism, and he's aware those are bad things, but it looks more like social and environmental than economic lunacy that's an actual threat to him. Thinks immigration is excessive but that deporting millions of people is a pie-in-the-sky exercise; admires the first gen illegals for their work ethic but thinks their children are great arguments against birthright citizenship. Is not a race realist or a white nationalist, but probably thinks it's better to be white than anything else, and doesn't even try to reconcile the two beliefs.
Knows there's just no fixing some people, but doesn't like tying it to a specific quality like intelligence or conscientiousness. Knows those people are disproportionately likely to be black, but thinks everyone should have the chance to be judged individually, on their merits. Has a very low opinion of black culture. Tells jokes about all the different kinds of people, but only to those he knows well. Might still be prejudiced against new englanders. If he doesn't agree with you he'll tell you to your face, and expects people to get to the point if they have something to say.
Talks to his dad regularly and consults with him for advice. Might travel or do activities with his dad and wouldn't find it an insult to be compared to him. The same might go for grandpa. Definitely does not think using parental resources is wrong, as long as he's not a burden, but he'd think there's something wrong with a man who lives with his parents well into adulthood(a woman, probably not).
Looks down his nose at 'woo-woo crap', but himself willing to listen to alternate medicine and a wide variety of conspiracy theories. Might go on oddball diets, but cheats on them. Expects women to be doing this perpetually.
I agree with most of this, but statistics get in the way of the not-vaccinated: better than 80% of American adults have received at least one dose of the vaccine. A large number of the remainder aren't doing so for red tribe political reasons, ranging from "woo woo crap" (my old yoga teacher Fawn), to simple irresponsibility and failure to schedule it. If the entire Red Tribe didn't get vaccinated, it's way smaller than I think.
Rather, a huge number of Red Tribe Americans, got the vaccine initially, and vaguely regret it.
Indeed, I think regret is a good way to identify tribal affiliation in general. What one regrets not doing, and what one is proud of and billboards having done, is a good dividing line.
Red Tribers who served in the military never shut the fuck up about it. See eg, our dear departed Hlynka, subject to the joke from multiple users: "How do you know Hlynka served in the military? Don't worry, he'll tell you." Red Tribers who didn't serve in the military vaguely regret that they didn't, consider it a hole in their life story, and as a result would find that joke vaguely offensive. Blue Tribe PMC who served in the military only mention it if sat down and quizzed about their life story, and skate over it. Blue Tribe normies who didn't serve in the military are just kinda uncomfortable when anyone talks about it, in the same way that one is uncomfortable when somebody voices political or religious opinions that you disagree with.
Red Tribers who hunt never shut the fuck up about it, they build their whole year around hunting for months. Red Tribers who don't hunt vaguely wish they did, and think killing one's own meat is a good thing even if they never get around to it. Blue Tribers who hunt just treat it as a vacation, go somewhere for a week, and eat venison. They never mention it, for fear of getting PETA'd in their friend group.
Living in the same suburban subdivision, Red Tribers will regret not living further out in the country, and claim that the suburb they live in is a "real American small town" or cosplay that their 1.5 acre plot is their "land" like they live in the country. Blue Tribe neighbors across the street will pretend they live in the city, emphasizing that it's only an hour (and a half) to [city] where there's good theater or whatever, and we go there ALL THE TIME it's practically like we live in the city, or that it's getting more diverse, or that there's a lot of great ethnic restaurants if you really look, or...
Red Tribers drive, or wish they drove, a pickup truck. If they drive a Crew Cab 1500, or worse a compact like a Maverick or a Ridgeline, they wish it was a 2500 and make it up to look like one. If they don't drive a pickup, they tart up their SUV to pretend it is a truck. See eg my buddy that bought a Ford Escape and instantly went out and bought a Harbor Freight winch for it, "in case I need to pull people out of a ditch in the winter, I just think if your truck can have a winch it should have a winch..." A Blue Triber who drives that same SUV will pretend it's just the most practical efficient car for them, but they vaguely wish it wasn't so inefficient. A Blue Triber driving a Crew Cab Pickup will constantly try to justify it with vague allusions to outdoor hobbies.
On the same vacation to a resort in Mexico, a blue triber will trip over himself to talk about how authentic it was and the culture and how much he learned and how much he interacted with the natives (waiters). A red triber will talk about how nice the place was and how he drank a lot and it was great because the waiters would bring you tons of drinks right to the pool. Nevertheless, the red triber is more likely to actually have made friends with the staff.
I was writing that description for, specifically, a younger crowd, because that seemed like what the normie blue tribe description was aiming at. And IME for male red tribers likelihood of getting the Covid vaccine is straightforwardly correlated with age(although keeping up with boosters is just not a red tribe thing- or seemingly a mainstream blue thing).
I do think you’re understating the differences in behavior a bit. Hlynka did marry the girl he knocked up; most motteizeans would have settled for uneven custody and child support payments. Suburban subdivisions generally do literally get more red the farther out you go, functionally every white person in a church on an average Sunday is red tribe, and the core red tribe has a substantial fertility advantage.
This might be the geographical variation you referred to, or it might be a difference in definition or emphasis on the tribal concept.
In my mind, the Blue Tribe/Red Tribe split is meant to encompass the vast majority of white Americans (non-Whites have different dynamics, though may be in alliance with Red/Blue whites in different cases). Of course there are geographies and professions where one side has a vast preponderance and the other is rare as hen's teeth. But a huge percentage of the white American population lives in between, neither in Manhattan nor the Yellowstone ranch, in suburbs and small cities. Their attitude toward that liminal location, whether they want it to be more like Manhattan or more like Yellowstone, tells you more about the attitudes of tribesmen than their actions, which are mostly pretty similar. The core red triber isn't a quiverfull oilfield welder who goes to church every Sunday, and the core Blue Triber doesn't have a masters in Gender Studies they use at their email job. Those are extremes, the tiny outer percentages of the population. Rather, distinguishing Red/Blue is about how two sets of suburban parents conceptualize how to teach morality to their 2.5 kids, how they go about lying to their parents about whether they're going to church every Sunday, etc.
This might be geographically personal. I live at the rural exurb edge of the I-95 megalopolis, the last highway exit on the East Coast. Drive west from my house for ten minutes and you see nothing but farms, red tribe country, until you hit Pittsburgh. Drive east or south from my house and in two to three hours you can be in the middle of any of four major cities. I live in that liminal space, where every house on the block might vote differently, and I conceptualize its importance. The keystone, the swing vote, the tipping point. Lose the suburbs, electorally and culturally, and Red Tribe is dead. Win them, and as Hunter S. Thompson said about the 60s, the great wave from the coast will break and roll back from that high water mark.
I think the main division in the red tribe is degree of religiosity(committed versus casual Christian) and then region(southern versus midwestern versus southwestern versus west) and geography(suburban/exurban versus actually rural). My description was pretty southern casual-religious suburban. Midwesterners are probably just a little different.
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The last exit on I-95 is in Houlton Maine. It is wayyyyy more than 2 hours to Boston. But if you want to drink half frozen Molson beer while ice fishing, there is no better place to be.
Sorry, wasn't clear there, I'm the last Exit going West once you exit 95 not the last exit on I95 itself.
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I would very much like to read the female version.
I have no idea how indoor rock climbing became the quintessential sport/activity among yuppie tech workers. I went to my nearest gym a few times and felt out of place not wearing a Google/Dropbox/Salesforce t-shirt.
I used to manage a rock climbing gym, and I'm now a yuppie, so...
The thing about Rock Climbing that makes it so popular is that the part that makes climbing a route cool to normies is separate from the part that makes it technically cool to insiders.
When I tell people I climb, they ask things like "How high do you go? Do you go all the way to the top? Do you climb outside?" That's what people get excited about, or maybe free solo shit or overhangs and dynos if they're watching. They don't really care about route grading, just doesn't enter their head, luckily because once stats enter the mainstream they tend to get lied on so often they become useless.
There are 80-ft outdoor toprope routes around me that are beginner grade nonsense, I could take any reasonably athletic mottizen there next weekend and coach them through it. But your average normie is going to be more impressed by that video on Insta, than they would by me finishing the V6 benchmark project I've been working on for the Moonboard for months, despite the latter being vastly harder and rarer.
So the first day you show up at an indoor gym, you do what the general public perceives as just about the coolest thing there: you climb up a big wall on top rope, all the way to the top. Any decent gym has a route for beginners on a big wall, I would always make sure our route setters kept something easy on the tallest wall in the gym for that exact reason. After that, it's all progress, and it's a sport-hobby you can whittle away at infinitely.
Compare the classic ne plus ultra of yuppie sports: distance running. When I ran the marathon that gave me my username, I didn't train for it at all, it was on a bet (with another rock climber, coincidentally). Why did I casually stroll 26.2 miles and not 20 or 25? Because finishing a marathon has a cache to it, and the part normies ask about is finishing the marathon. The cool part of endurance running is the endurance, not the running. Only those who are into marathons care about your time, most people just think it is cool that you did it. So no matter how good you are at distance running, if you finished, you did the cool part. It's not really any cooler, in normal conversation, to brag about your three hour marathon than it is to say "I ran a marathon."
Similarly, going rock climbing is cool because you went, not because you climbed 5.12. This makes it popular among the casual, because the part they brag about isn't hard. Post a picture of you climbing on instagram, nobody is looking at the holds and saying it looks juggy except serious climbers, most people just notice how high you are off the ground.
I also like rock climbing personally, and think it is popular, because as a workout it will actually naturally build the body most people want: lean, muscular, upper body focused. MyFitnessPal logs an hour of rock climbing as some absurd number like 950 calories burned, and my forearms and biceps are tough to fit into shirts after I got into climbing.
Thanks for this comment.
I'd be interested in your opinions about the dynamics of Red/Blue tribe affiliation at the ultra high end of climbing. Obviously, there's a lot of crunchy types there, but:
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Oh, that's easy: As long as you have an okay baseline of fitness, it's the absolute perfect casual social sport. If you're a beginner, you can go for easy routes and get help from the more experienced (and vice versa if you're experienced). If you're competitive, you choose hard route and repeatedly do it in a rotation with a similarly competitive friend. If you're a talker, you just do a minimum amount of climbing and otherwise watch the others and talk with the ones currently on a break. If you're a nerd, you choose a weird-looking route and theorize on how it ought to be done. And the best part, all these people can go together simultaneously without being in each others way.
Now compare soccer. I like it as well, but it generally goes best with a fixed group of friends on a similar level of fitness, experience and inclination. It's better for closer bonding, but for a casual round it happens too easy that somebody feels like they aren't fitting in.
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It requires a decent income, which prevents other demographics from getting into it (at such a high rate). Climbing gyms around me are 100 bucks a month (double what a nice lifting gym costs), and that's without rentals. Factor in shoes, harness, chalk bag, belay device and it's a big initial investment (or money going towards renting gear ever time you go).
And there's a big intersection with hippies. Might be different in other parts of the world, but in the mountains of Canada, I associate traditional rock climbing with west coast hippy/vanlife folks, who are either a-politcal weird lifestyle people who are not traditional in any sense of the word except in rock climbing, or default left wing. Those are the folks who are often foundational to climbing gyms (work there, teach there, or park their modified school-bus-turned-home outside there to climb in the off season).
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I think it suits well as a modern sport since it's largely self-directed, supports a wide range of time slots, Instagram friendly and you can take a friend group of differing ability to participate without direct competition.
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Thanks, that sounds very interesting indeed.
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I would like to read the female version as well.
Disclaimer: There are enough far-left women that they can be counted as "normie" in a certain sense, but I don't think it's the kind of women the OP wants to know about. Also, I dislike & avoid them too much, so it would just read like a dunking. For the female version, I'll give an amalgation of my wife, her sister, their friends & some mothers we're friends with:
A portrait of a female normie blue triber
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Accurate. Me and most of my Blue tribe circle would check at least half those boxes.
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...Calvin's mom and dad?
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Normie is a relative term. But my advice if you want normie blue tribe vibes in the wild is, if you're American, find your local MiLB team and when they're doing a pride night this month. That's pretty much going to be it.
Or go to most yoga studios or rock climbing gyms.
Keep in mind that blue tribe != Democratic voter.
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Lives in the suburbs of a city, has a white collar job, drives a RAV-4 or similar car, watches sports on TV, enjoys Netflix, watches Marvel movies, spends a lot of money (but not time) on vacations.
Biggest concern is making more money. Wants kids but not enough to sacrifice financially. Thinks the United States is mostly great but is worried about Nazis.
Like the red tribe, votes mostly based on vibes.
What are his metaphysical/spiritual beliefs? I know astrology seems like a blue tribe thing and, stereotypically, he’s not very committed to Christianity. But most of these people don’t seem like pure atheist materialists either.
What does he do for in person socializing? Like you mentioned work, and a comment downthread mentioned social media use. You mentioned vacations too. These people seem unlikely to be churchgoers, and bars have been declining for years. Is it just the gym? Are they just generally lonely? Is the more money mostly to pay for vacations?
What’s his definition of Nazi? Surely he’s not literally worried about Adolf Hitler.
Moralistic therapeutic deism
This is slightly complicated by the Great Awokening, which I understand as the replacement of MTD by Wokism as the dominant religious principle of the Blue Tribe, but Wokism doesn't have the metaphysical aspect that some people think is necessary for it to be an actual religion.
Another interesting point is that hard core blue tribers think that all major world religions, correctly understood, are skins on MTD, so anyone who believes in a religion other than MTD is doing their own religion wrong.
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Regardless of political persuasion, I have never met a straight man who was interested in astrology. 100% of the people I've met who were interested in it were women or gay men.
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Unitarian Universalist if they are "spiritual but not religious" but still like to go to church, United Methodist if they consider themselves Christian.
Or Episcopalian, or a few other denominations.
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Spiritual, but not religious. Just world fallacy. Likes yoga and meditation but doesn't consider them religious practices.
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Most people don't really have these in any meaningful sense. Your average Christian, agnostic, or atheist differ only to the extent that they give different answers to questions about god if you ask them directly, but in practice they don't live their lives any differently. Suburban liberals typically have some faded recollection of their ancestral religion, whatever it may be, but are not particularly introspective or concerned with the deeper mysteries of the universe in general. To the extent that they aren't pure atheist materialists, that's because they lack the autistic disagreeableness that most of us here possess and are defaulting to basic human inclinations and behaviors.
He will have a small set of friends from work, old schoolmates, and family (more likely if coming from an immigrant background) within driving distance to share occasional backyard barbecues, movie/board game nights, gatherings at restaurants/bars, sports matches, concerts, etc. This set will often notably exclude his actual neighbors, whom he probably doesn't know very well. Most are lonely, even if they don't have the self-awareness to recognize it as such, and this contributes to declining fertility rates, as there is no social support network for new parents and they may essentially drop out of their friend groups and become social outcasts with only paid nannies and their own aging parents (if they are even in the vicinity) for help.
To him, Nazi is more or less a synonym for racist, and what counts as racist is dictated by the collective opinion of his peers, social media, and mainstream news sources. His actual knowledge of the relevant history will be quite limited, though if he sees a NYT article comparing some current event to Kristallnacht he knows that means it's very bad.
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In the context of the UK, these would be my answers:
Males are mostly purely atheist. Spirituality/astrology appeals more to females but mostly to older Boomer/Gen-X women (new-age types). Millennial blue-tribe women IME don't have much interest in this, preferring to get their spiritual fulfilment by being involved in or signaling support for fashionable progressive causes.
Work was a big one before the pandemic and remote work. For older people it will largely be family, for younger people social life will often revolve around friends from university, people met while house-sharing etc. And a lot of these people are pretty lonely and won't have made many friends since graduating.
Nazi/Fascist rhetoric is a bit less prevalent in the UK, with blue tribers mostly just calling those they don't like racists/bigots IME. To the extent they do use stronger language it's mostly in the context of talking about US republicans, who a lot of them are convinced are almost as bad as literal 1930/40s German Nazis.
As an aside, writing the above has made me reflect on the extent to which the blue/red tribe distinction works in the UK context. It's definitely at least somewhat useful for analysing cultural and political fault-lines but I think it misses other distinctions (like those between European and non-European migration) that are probably more salient in the UK than the US. Might be worth a top level CW post at some point.
The short answer is that there is no "red tribe" in the UK (except for Northern Irish Unionists, who are mostly irrelevant to UK-wide politics) - the "red tribe" is anchored by the long-standing distinctive culture of the white South, which has no equivalent in the mainland UK. The UK culture war is generational, not tribal - see for example the age split in the Brexit referendum exit poll which is bigger than the racial gap and far bigger than the equivalent generation gap in the US.
This is also on my list of "things I would like to do an effortpost on if I didn't have a demanding job and two SEN kids"
I look forward to reading that effortpost if/when you get around to it!
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I would say blue tribe normies are not typically into astrology, outside of progressive women in big cities (even there I think it's a minority position).
Absolutely not, every "blue" woman I know is heavily into woo, and I know a broad profile of them. Even the ones who work in tech have Quantum Spirituality books on their shelves.
Horoscopes are almost universal.
Again this is a range from "part time barista" to "social worker" to nurse to an actual tech VP.
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A "normie" blue triber may exhibit some (or all) of these attributes: He went to a state school and has, at least, a bachelor's degree; he likes rock, rap, or pop music playing on the local radio or Spotify playlist a friend made him; he gets his news from social media -- mostly Instagram, X, TikTok, or YouTube -- but still reads the occasional link from The New York Times, CNN, The Washington Post, or Vox posted on his Apple News feed; he "doesn't follow" politics but knows enough about Trump not to vote for him; he grew up religious but hasn't gone to church in years; he lives in a city or a suburb; he accepts gay people but isn't in your face about it (he might also be gay himself); he works a nine-to-five, white-collar job; he has a passing interest in video games; he shot a gun once or twice in his life; he doesn't hunt, fish, or do any "outdoor sports"; he drives a sedan or an SUV (they may be hybrids more to save money on gas than lower his carbon emission); etc.
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