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Nybbler would declare that this is, in fact, changing the culture of people who mass produce end-use consumer goods. That this is the only way, that we have to change their culture. If that is required, I am willing to do it. If you think that we can regulate them so that they don't churn out billions of trivially-hackable devices, without changing their culture, I'm fine with that. But they keep telling me that we can't do that! That we have to change their culture! That that's the only option!
Not at all. I love the 'tinkerer' culture. I love the innovation culture. I love the building new stuff culture. I love coding and coming up with interesting new shit, though my day job is more on the new math side and I'm having less time for coding lately. The culture that I dislike is the "we can keep pumping out trivially-hackable shit because it might be slightly boring to take the basic steps everyone knows and nobody's going to do anything about it" culture.
He's mistrustful of people who request minor reasonable regulations, for fear that they will stay neither. Given the history of law, culture, and social movements in his country, I think that's a largely justified fear. There's ways of having a productive conversation with people who have such fears, but you seem determined to strongly signal you are exactly the kind of person they shouldn't trust. For example:
Ok, in that case I'm out. If it's your way or the highway, and forcing change on a culture doesn't even phase you, I don't know how you can pretend to only want some reasonable regulations.
Tell me again why you were upset about being mischaracterized by Nybbler.
It is not "my way or the highway". Again, if you can come up with any other way to make it so that we don't have billions of trivially-hackable shit with default passwords, sign me up. But I keep getting told this is my only option! It's not even "my way"! It's the only option! That this is a fact about the universe! Nothing to do with me at all!
EDIT: Give me "your way"! Make it an option! If you can do so in a way that won't result in Nybber telling us that "your way" would break their culture, great! But he keeps telling me that you can't.
You are still effectively saying "get rid of things that annoy me, or I'll drive a steamroller over your culture", even if you don't particularly care how those things or gotten rid of, in my opinion that's still accurately described as "my way or the highway"?
You're getting tit for tat, and are acting upset about it, I really don't get it.
I did, and he didn't seem to say anything in response to me, so mission accomplished?
I would be perfectly happy not driving a steamroller over anyone's culture. But billions of trivially-hackable devices with default passwords is truly unacceptable. If you want to characterize any version of "we need to fix this problem (and by the way, we can do so trivially)" as being "my way or the highway", I think this is just a fully-general argument against fixing any problems ever, even the most trivial ones. Literally any time someone points out any problem that could be fixed and says, "Hey, how about we fix this," it can be characterized as "my way or the highway". Even if they're open to literally any option that you can put on the table to solve the problem, they're not prescriptive at all, and are perfectly happy considering the relative merits/demerits of each approach, and even open to the possibility that all options genuinely have too many demerits to implement. Literally any form of "let's fix this problem" is "my way or the highway" because you want to "get rid of the problem (that annoys me... and also causes billions of dollars in damage every year and is a national security threat, but I guess mostly because it annoys me)".
So look, if you can come up with any other ideas. Get rid of them, don't get rid of them. Fix the massive problems some other way, still having billions of devices with default passwords, fine. I don't care. Come up with ideas. Bring them to the table. We can debate the merits/demerits. We honestly could even conclude that there are too many demerits of all the options and choose to not do anything. But right now, what I'm being told is that the One Great Demerit that is fatal to all possible options (not "my way"; all options) is that whatever is done, it will "destroy a culture". Very little is given to support what the meat of this demerit is, other than what appears to be vague threats of slowing innovation. If that's all, then I will throw in with destroying the culture. I will throw in with doing it in the most minimal way possible, with the most reasonable regulations you can come up with, or whatever alternative solution you propose, and we will just have to live with destroying the culture.
Moreover, your refusal on grounds of it being "my way or the highway" is fully symmetric, in addition to being fully general. If, as is claimed, the only two options are "billions of trivially-hackable devices with default passwords" and "destroy a culture", then the people who are demanding that we choose the former are also demanding "my way or the highway". It's just that their way is the other way. Why aren't you rejecting their position on the grounds of it being "my way or the highway"?
I don't know what you mean by this.
Can you link me? I'd really appreciate seeing your way. If you truly believe his silence means that we can do it, fix the problem, and not destroy the culture, it may actually be mission accomplished.
Uuh... I feel like I'm being uno-reversoed here. I specifically said I would be in favor of fixing the problem, particularly when it can be done trivially, and you explicitly said that my approach is reasonable. So you cannot I'm characterizing any version of "we need to fix this problem" as "my way or the highway". This cannot be down to a misunderstanding at this point, we've been through this several times. What I am characterizing as "my way or the highway" is your explicit admission that if the trivial solution does not work, you won't think twice about destroying the tinkerers' culture. If you want to make the claim that the utter destruction of it is worth it to get rid of the scourge of default passwords, but you can't claim that you just want a trivial fix, and you'll leave everyone alone.
Because they're not trying to sell themselves as "hey, just implement this trivial fix, and we'll leave you alone". All terminal values are "my way or the highway", but everybody has terminal values of some sort. My complaint with you is that you're acting injured that anyone would portray your values as terminal, when you said you'd destroy innovation and tinkering if other solutions won't work. You sneer at people for suggesting it might go that far, and then happily admit you'd have absolutely no issue of taking it to that point, if that's what it takes.
You write in a vaguely antagonistic shit-posty style, that implicitly asks to be taken with a grain of salt, but when people respond in kind you demand that their stylized arguments be taken deadly serious.
Here, you even responded to it.
My problem here is that if it doesn't work, you explicitly said you won't stop at it.
I don't know what you mean by this. What is "the trivial solution"? I don't have any idea what you mean by it. We've been talking about the entire class of possible solutions that stop billions of devices from being trivially-hackable with default passwords. Which one is "the trivial solution"?
I am not injured in any such way. I explicitly presented the value of stopping the deluge of trivially-hackable devices with default passwords as a terminal value. You're just really off the mark.
I think your link was meant to be this. Frankly, I interpret Nybbler's silence as rejecting your proposal. We can clear this up right quick, though. Hey @The_Nybbler! Arjin says:
Do you think this will destroy the culture, since anyone who wants to make mass-produced end-user consumer goods will be reduced to nothing but checking boxes? Or do you think that he can do this without destroying the culture?
I actually explicitly said that I would consider all possible ideas, and that I was even open to the possibility that all options genuinely have too many demerits to implement. Literally in the comment you were just replying to. Please don't lie about what I've said.
Whatever you meant when you said "(and by the way, we can do so trivially)".
I think you're being rather coy about it. When you tell me things like:
That means you're proposing a trivially simple fix, and consider me to be stubbornly and unreasonably standing in their way. That does not come off, "default passwords must be purged from the face of the Earth, even if it means the end of all tinkering". You do say the latter when someone talks to you for a bit, but this is after posts and posts of portraying anyone that objects as unreasonable and hyperbolic.
You're the one lying about what you've said:
You were literally explaining to me how getting rid of default passwords is a terminal values of yours just a moment ago. What are you even doing?
This is not what I have said. Not even remotely. I would be perfectly happy with actions that don't end all of tinkering. I would prefer them!
We can move this to the other thread, because this was your solution. In the other thread, we can discuss whether you're willing to pursue your solution, even if it changes their culture. I am still open to arguments that your solution has too many demerits to be implemented, but I am currently on the side of being willing to do your solution, even though you have now discovered that it will, in fact, change a culture. I could be persuaded otherwise, but first let's see if you're willing to proceed with your own solution.
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If you regulate mass-produced end-user consumer goods, you will destroy the culture of innovation in that sector, yes. But that's what you want, you've said so yourself; you explicitly want to change the culture of the outgroup you have that consists of software people who refuse to color within the lines.
There you have it, @ArjinFerman. You're a culture-destroyer. You just didn't know it.
I mean, I can hardly blame you, though. It was the only choice you had. Literally if you do anything, Nybbler will think that you're a culture-destroyer. There are only two options: do nothing and have billions of trivially-hackable devices with default passwords... or be a culture-destroyer. That's it. That's the dichotomy.
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