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PaperclipPerfector  10mo ago (text post)   26707 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 22, 2024

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If your position is practical, rather than moral, wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper to stop sending aid to Gaza and Yemen, and let the populations there starve to death? It would be much more effective than bombing weapons caches, and nobody seems to care about starving Yemenis anyway.

That's not practical, because it discredits America and makes enemies of a billion Arabs. Even Joe Biden enabling the Israelis in their current operation is a huge blow to the perceived legitimacy of America in the region. Israel is not and has never been worth all the animosity it has earned the United States from the Arab world. Practical considerations means it's time's up on Israel failing to secure peace after many decades and enormous leeway and support.

It does not discredit the US one bit if it stops sending aid to Yemen. Note how the crisis in Yemen is caused by their Arab brethren, not by any western entity. In truth, the way that the US currently handles the situation - on the one hand arming the Saudis, and on the other hand feeding the Houthis - is causing you to look as two-faced as possible. Same goes for the Israeli-Arab situation. You're not winning any friends by playing both sides and prolonging wars, no matter what humanitarian justifications you may think up.

You also say that "Israel [...] has never been worth all the animosity it has earned the United States from the Arab world." To counter a "never" claim, one example is enough, thus I present you with "have doughnut". Western powers are well-known for being fickle and untrustworthy, only concerned with what your allies can supply you in the short term, but you don't have to play up to stereotype by totally forgetting the past. Maybe a more mild statement is called for.

That's not practical, because it discredits America and makes enemies of a billion Arabs.

Or to put it in another metric - 400 nukes.

I'm not aware of any Arab countries with nukes. Are you thinking of Pakistan?

No. I was referring to that it takes 400 nukes to make 0 arabs hate us from 1 billion

Ah, I see. I'm not an expert on nukes, but I'd think you'd need more than that to get them down to 0. Also, if you want to color only within the lines - i.e. not hit Turkey, Iran, Pakistan, Sudan etc. - you'd need to add some other, more accurate ordinance, just to get those corners filled out.

Killing a billion people would presumably make you several additional enemies among the people you didn't kill.

That's not practical, because it discredits America and makes enemies of a billion Arabs.

If the Iraq war and invasion (and eventual desertion) of Afghanistan didn't achieve this, not sure why Palestine is the red line.

I don't think you've got a strong argument for why "not sending endless amounts of aid" leads to making enemies of "a billion Arabs," most of whom have zero capability to even hurt U.S. interests.

I find the whole premise actively silly, to be honest.

There's only half a billion Arabs.

Maybe he was including future Arabs too?

Why would it be practical to genocide millions of people and piss off the entire middle east? Israel provides little benefit at an enormous cost. The sensible solution is to dump Israel and befriend the arab states.

What do you mean "why"? If you want to stop the Houthis from blocking trade routes, surely their disappearance would achieve that goal. Dead people cannot initiate hostilities.

You're welcome to try to "befriend the arab states", though you'll have to choose which ones. Currently you're on the Saudi-Sunni axis, which is one of the reasons the Iranian don't like you. Rest assured that your support for Israel is a minor issue at best.

Chinese ships sail through just fine. They have no problem because they haven't been killing large numbers of people in the middle east. Trillions have been wasted on warmongering in the middle east and the result is that Chinese ships are safer in the red sea.

Yes, that's pretty much what I said. the Iranian proxy groups do not target China, since they're on good terms with each other. The US, however, has chosen to side with the Saudi-Sunni side (in general). At the same time, you're also feeding your friends' enemies - literally sending aid to the Houthis and Gazans at the same time your allies are fighting them. You expect to not be hated when acting in such a two-faced manner? You're playing both sides, prolonging every conflict for as long as possible, and now everyone hates you. Just FYI, the Israeli public isn't very happy with you either. What else do you expect?

Their is no evidence any of the Arab states care at all about Palestinians or Yemenis. They definitely don’t want those people in their borders.

Pakistan kicked millions of Afganistans out. It would seem to be a stretch to say any of those countries care about a Palestinian.

Pakistan and Pashto groups have been in conflict for a long time. Palestinians are often the same ethnic group as a large portion of the surrounding countries. They clearly don't want many of the holiest sites in Islam occupied by jews.

Maybe 30 years ago. Saudis already signed off on Jewish ownership. Your statement is no longer correct.

Why would Christians and Jews want many of the holiest sites in Christendom and Judaism occupied by Muslims?

A lot of Palestinians are christians and if anything the muslims see Jesus and the biblical stories as a part of their religion. Most importantly, it means 7 million Palestinians stay in Palestine and we don't get another massive neocon refugee crisis on Europe's doorstep. Europe and the middle east both benefit from stable middle eastern regimes. Israel wants destabilize the region.

Europe and the middle east both benefit from stable middle eastern regimes.

As far as I know, historically speaking, the only times the region has been 'stable' was when it was ruled by a single empire. Similar to Iraq's Sunni-Shia fighting only being tamped down while Saddam was in power.

So this seems like an argument for European re-establishing the region as a colony.

Like, do you apply the same standards to the Balkans region of Europe itself? Would we benefit if control of the entire region to one of the local powers? Would Europe benefit from stable Eastern European regimes?

Compare Libya under Gadaffi and after Israel-supporters wrecked it. Iran, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia are fairly stable states because there hasn't been intervention. Egypt is stable and peaceful. There is no reason why Palestine can't function as well as Egypt.

So this seems like an argument for European re-establishing the region as a colony.'

It is the opposite. Every time the neocons send troops to the middle east we get flooded with migrants. The best policy for the west is to get out of the middle east, support stable regimes and ending support for Israel.

I generally support smaller states. However, in south eastern Europe bigger alliances are needed to defend Europe's borders from invasions from the middle east.

t is the opposite. Every time the neocons send troops to the middle east we get flooded with migrants. The best policy for the west is to get out of the middle east, support stable regimes and ending support for Israel.

This is conspiracy theorism. Israel didnt care about Gaddafi. Sure, they disliked him. But Libya isnt anywhere close to Israel. He wasnt even remotely a threat. He was just some oil corrupt Arab dictator not even at their borders, why would Israel care about deposing him?

Gaddafi getting deposed was a French operation of neocolonialism. Blame Western "morality" for it, not any Israeli or Jewish interest that even remotely cared about Libya. France just simply liked to have power over North Africa, and it was their belief they could change the region for the better. They were wrong

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