The Wednesday Wellness threads are meant to encourage users to ask for and provide advice and motivation to improve their lives. It isn't intended as a 'containment thread' and any content which could go here could instead be posted in its own thread. You could post:
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I am a late 20s/early 30s American man of South Asian descent, living and working in NYC. Several months ago my account was banned from the dating app Hinge. This has made a lot of people[citation needed] very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
I can only speculate as to who got me banned and why. Suffice it to say, I don't think that I deserve this treatment, but the point is moot: as far as I know, there is no appeals process nor any other recourse available to me or anyone else in this situation.
Hinge was by far the best dating app that I had ever used in terms of the number and quality of matches of the type that I'm looking for (mid-late 20s highly-educated Asian-American women looking for a serious relationship/marriage), as well as the conversion rate from match to texting to date. Since my account was banned, I have been forced to use Coffee Meets Bagel, which has resulted in far fewer matches, conversations that go nowhere, and almost zero dates.
What should I do now?
Here is a smattering of ideas that I have considered:
Meet People IRL
Frankly this approach seems dead in the water in this day and age. The only reliable way to meet people in person anymore has been, in my experience, through academia. I had decent dating success in graduate school, though I think that might be more a statement about me/the social settings that I thrive and in: I know from experience that one thing a lot of women find attractive in men is being passionate about something, and passionately holding forth -- or better yet, leading a discussion -- about something. As a TA, I had plenty of opportunities to do just that.
Perhaps I could go for another master's degree, part time. It's even conceivable that my employer would pay for it, if I seIl it right. But that seems like a major investment of time and effort for very questionable benefit.
Use Different Apps
I'm open to recommendations for other dating apps that would be a good fit for someone with my demographics, type and relationship goals (vide supra).
As mentioned previously, I've found CMB to be pretty terrible. I suspect that I may be blacklisted from all Match Group apps (Tinder, Bumble, etc.) due to the Hinge ban, but I could give them a try. However, my limited experience with them has been that they are far worse than Hinge.
I've heard about The League and created a profile but have not put much effort into using it. I could be convinced to spend more time on it if someone can vouch for it.
There's a newfangled app called Saturday that the kids these days are using, but it seems to cater to a slightly younger clientele (early 20s-ish, primarily), and it's really not a dating-centric app; my read is that it's more for meetups/making friends.
Any other apps that I could use?
Circumvent the Ban
I'm reasonably tech-savvy I've done a bit of research on how to do a "hard reset". It sounds like in order to even have a fighting chance of pulling this off, I'd have to:
I am willing to put in the time, effort, and money to make all of these things happen. My biggest concern is with item 6: I don't have that many good profile pics beyond the ones I put on my old profile. I've been playing around with some models for generating photos based on Stable Diffusion and I've managed to generate some fairly realistic pics of me, so that may be an option if worst comes to worst. Or I could hire a professional photographer to take some more photos of me.
As for item 7, it's been several months now so I think the odds are pretty slim that that person -- whoever she is -- sees me again, remembers me, and hates me enough to report me again after all this time.
Unfortunately, I was stupid enough to do the "recommended" facial verification on my old profile. I have no idea what kind of technology they use for that, nor how long they store the data for banned accounts, but that alone might mean I'm SOL. I wouldn't do it again if I made a new account, unless forced to, in which case I guess I could grow out my facial hair first to try and look different, or get a friend to scan his face instead.
Something Else Entirely
??? I'm open to any and all suggestions. Thanks for your time!
You're in NYC, the options are practically endless. (from fellow late 20s south Asian male who used to be in NYC). Climbing and mixed-gender sports are the easiest places to get started. If you were socially well adjusted enough to get laid in school and be a TA, then you'll be alright.
Bumble is not owned by the match group
Also, yes. Circumvent the ban. If you can't afford a new dual sim phone, then you can't afford to date in NYC. Use your middle name or change the spelling. The wifi thing sounds like a good idea. Similarly, if you don't have enough new photos, then you need to be going out more. Dating apps won't help here. See, even if you get dates, you need to be interesting enough to hold their attention. If your life is boring enough that you can't come up with good photos for hinge within 3 months, then you would have gotten ghost with or without the ban.
What's the worst they can do ? Ban you again ?
The extent to which a man will go to stay inside.
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It isn't. There's never been a better time to .... go outside and talk to girls.
With respect, this demonstrates an already very constrained mental attitude towards the possibilities you impute in dating. It also begs the question; if you can't start a conversation in the real world, what makes you think you'll be able to shepherd a digital conversation into it with any more success?
The only way to do it is to do it. There are millions of pages of text online theorizing about the optimal risk-frontier controlled way to strike up a conversation. It's all pointless. Talk to everyone. I've written about how to do this before;
The reason that reasonable women have, at best, a tepid interest in the Dating Apps is because even well-intentioned young men (like yourself) go through this optimization program to boost their matches. This lack of authenticity and, frankly, salesman-ish numbers game, will come through on dates. And, probably, via text as well. To be clear, I'm not saying it doesn't "work" (if your rubric for success is consistent dates and sex). But it doesn't work in the way you really want, which is a fulfilling and high trust relationship.
Go outside and talk to girls. The sex robots are already here. You've got a choice to make.
Heartily Endorsed.
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I think you're on to something here and you may be able to replicate this success by carefully selecting the IRL settings. Two key things that help IRL are (1) finding a place with singles that you find attractive and (2) places where you can be in a position of slightly higher status/expertise relative to the other people in that setting.
Things like volunteering or running a niche book club are potential places where you might be able to find success.
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Our experiences do not match. Granted, I am not an academic. Meeting people in that setting is not my idea of a good time. Instead of talking about sustainability theory at some convention, I'd rather hang out with likeminded people ripping out decorative bushes and planting a food forest. People who are capable of Doing The Damn Work are my people.
Filtering out the flakes (men and women) who RSVP but don't attend makes the selection process for who to associate with so much easier. I'm not sure how that translates to your areas of preference. Hopefully, you can connect the dots there.
I hadn't seen that before and it got genuine laugh.
Please accept this as a token of my appreciation. ;-)
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I'll repost my comment from two years ago. None of this is meant to be a bible. This is one approach
In the midwest I got a disproportionate amount of attention on Tinder (vs other apps). In the Bay my tinder match rate is lower but my Hinge match rate is higher (despite identical pictures). Moral of the story: the best app for you depends on different factors, including location; try every app at least once per locale.
In the midwest my match rate on tinder was awful when I used bad photos and great when I used better photos. My current photos are: a picture of me on a ski trip, a picture of me shirtless (tripod), a (bad-quality) picture of me in New Zealand, a picture of me reading (tripod), a (bad quality) picture of me hiking, and a picture of me playing the piano (tripod)
Some random tidbits I've picked up from a few months of online dating:
A surprising number of people (including women) think it's bad for me to have the ski-trip picture because you can't see my face. It's important to have some pictures where your face is clear, but absolutely not required for all of them.
TAKE LOTS OF PICTURES and only post the best. This is completely normal and not dishonest – women do this all the time. (Side note: I've never been catfished – I'm increasingly convince that most men who claim to have been catfished simply don't appreciate that women strategically select photos – if you can't tell if she's fat... well, there's a reason she isn't making it obvious)
If you're going to use a shirtless pic, do it immediately after running or lifting. Again: take many pictures with many different types of lighting.
Buy a tripod. It also helps to be confident/mature/social enough to ask a friend take pictures, but a tripod can be more comfortable than asking a friend to take 100 shirtless pictures. Avoid selfies.
Every picture should be in a different location. (though I have two pictures in the same building, but you can't tell). Multiple pictures from the same location suggest your pool of "interesting hobbies/events" is small. Yes, your profile is a highlight reel, but you need to leave the impression that there is plenty more you could have chosen from.
Don't put your height unless it helps sell you (this is probably around either 5'11" or 6 ft)
Dogs are good; cats are mixed (I haven't tried either, but iirc this is from OKCupid)
I think many nerds really hate the idea of presenting a false version of themselves, but normal people (including the people you match with) will overwhelmingly not consider posting (e.g.) vacation highlights or flattering angles to be misleading – it's just (unfortunately) part of the game. Part of using OLD apps for me was letting go of my pride – I had spent my whole life never overselling myself and getting by just fine because I was top of my class, etc. That kind of honesty is, unfortunately, not compatible with dating apps. It's worth noting that if you're underselling yourself compared to others, that's also a kind of dishonestly.
It may be helpful to know that probably half the reason you're not getting many matches isn't because women are rejecting you, but simply because women don't swipe (in either direction) nearly as much as men. To this end buying super swipes can be helpful (I did this before I re-ramped my profiles). For most people on this sub, $500 on dating apps in exchange for 40 years of happiness is cheap at twice the price.
If you think your hair doesn't look attractive, you're probably right (compare my first picture to my other two; I'm no top 2%, but at least I'm not bottom 50%). If you think your clothes don't look attractive, you're probably right. If you think your glasses don't look attractive, you're probably right. Trust your intuition. I'm a nerd interested in Lotr and statistics, who majored in math and CS, and spent my entire time as a student wearing t shirts. I still know unattractive when I see it (on me).
A great, customized opening message and an average, canned opener probably aren't that different in terms of response rate. Response rate (after matching) is basically ~50% for me no matter what, so I usually just send canned messages. 2 canned messages are better than 1 custom message.
If a woman matched with you and is talking to you, she is interested. You don't need to be suave or even have a decent segue to ask for her number or ask her on a date. Just ask "out of the blue" for either (I usually ask for a date then ask for a number to "work out the details"). I usually do this on the 3rd or 4th message (edit: though I usually sent pretty long messages when I was dating. YMMV, this is one approach that worked for me and is intended as an example more than as a bible).
Appreciate the effortful response, but I was already fairly happy with my results on Hinge; just needed a bit more time, I think.
The last time I used Tinder in NYC was years ago and things may have changed in the interim. I’ll give it (and possibly other apps) another try, as things may have changed over time and across locales, as you say. Thanks for the suggestion!
Yeah, wasn’t sure how applicable this was to your specifically.
Best of luck regardless!
Edit: oops, actually I mixed up your post and this one
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How do you get people to turn up? Back when I could bring myself to bother with Hinge, I'd follow all of this, get the date set up, and with a horrific inevitability she'd cancel the day of the date. Then I'd ask to re-schedule, she'd say yes, then bail on the day of the re-scheduled date. Was, rinse, repeat until I get the message and stop talking to her. This happened with 95% reliability on Hinge. The last two times I got tinder dates, I got stood up both times, so I perma-deleted everything I could on there. I no longer have any trust in matches and haven't been able to bring myself to message anyone in months. I just look at the profile, see the inevitable outcome, and skip to the end where I don't go on a date. It's as if asking someone out on Hinge is some sort of disappointment to them "Gee, I really liked this guy I was talking to on this dating app, everything was going so well, I was really into him, until he asked me on a date, ugh, who does that?"
So I dispute 12.
It’s interesting because this happened once to me and it was a girl with a Snapchat in her bio. I pretty religiously avoided girls with some sort of social media (eg a instagram) in their bios since I expected they were just hunting for followers, so maybe that’s the difference?
The being stood up part or the Infinite Rescheduling part? If either only ever happened once to you, then I'm even sadder now than I was before.
If you’re sad for your general misfortune I wholeheartedly agree.
If you think this meaningfully reflects your attractiveness to women (or, alternatively, the attractiveness of your profile to women), then I disagree.
I don’t the girls thinking “he’s attractive enough to message and give my number too, but I’m not going to go on a date him” is really a thing.
For reference I’ve gone from a bad profile (iirc 1-2 matches a week? to a decent one (maybe a dozen?), so I feel like I have a decent amount of experience on both sides.
IMO if a girl is flaking I think by far the mostly likely reason is she isn’t on the app to find dates.
So no one is on the app to find dates, then? I don't think you comprehend the level of flaking I've experienced.
Back when I used Tinder in the Midwest probably half of profiles had a Snapchat or Instagram link in their profile. If you’re in a big city I’d guess it’s higher than that (if you’re trying to be an influencer or sex worker you’d presumably target bigger cities, even if you didn’t actually live there).
Alternatively maybe you’re trying an approach women don’t like — trying to be too sexually overt, not showing commitment by using short messages, etc.
But I maintain that, since I didn’t have this issue with a bad profile or with a good profile, I don’t think this says much about how attractive women find you.
No, I am not sexually suggestive, and no I do not write short messages.
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Yeah I’d say probably 7/8 in 10 women on tinder have no intention of ever meeting someone on the app in real life.
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I'd guess, more realistically, it's that the types of women who primarily use the app for attention have a lower bar in attractiveness for men to whom they respond, compared to the types of women who primarily use the app for actual dates. And you, like many of us, are in that range between the 2 bars. It's not that there's something about you or your behavior that's causing the women to flake, it's that the women who respond to your messages are primarily from the pool the women who know beforehand that they'll almost certainly not actually see you in person.
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Why do you think you got banned?
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Circumvent the ban out of principle and exercise of technical competence.
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This is one of those things I keep seeing people post online but I just don't see in the world around me.
What do you do with your week, what are your hobbies, where do you go on a Sunday afternoon.
If your answer is you "I don't have any hobbies" and "I don't go out on Sunday", that there is your problem.
Why would you peruse another Masters Degree instead of say a job, a gym membership, or a Pilot's license? (For some reason FPOs in my area just seem to collect attractive 30 year-old women) You want to improve your dating prospects? My advice is to get buff, read books, and become interesting.
Meanwhile circumventing the ban just makes you a bad actor.
I am pursuing a job, and indeed it takes up the bulk of my day (~80 hours a week or so). Unfortunately, this job, though financially extremely rewarding, is in a very male-dominated field and my coworkers, though amiable enough in the office, are mostly settled down and not the most social creatures. Hence my reliance on dating apps.
As for my hobbies, I’m a big fan of singing karaoke, playing board games and trivia. Yes, I’m aware that I am a bit of a walking stereotype. My Sunday (well, Saturday) nights are largely spent doing those things with friends. My friend group is reasonably gender-balanced compared to my workplace but there is, I feel, a cultural tendency within the group against asking out other members of the group; instead the vibe is that dating should be kept separate (and, it is implied, app-based) so as to avoid causing drama. In any case, I don’t think there are any currently-single women in the group.
Point well taken that I can and should get into shape. I do think that is the highest-marginal-return-to-attractiveness thing I could do right now, but I don’t see how that would meaningfully widen the top of the funnel. I suppose I might meet someone at the gym, but again, my read of the cultural milieu is that making passes at the gym is generally frowned upon (as always, rules 1 and 2 apply, etc. etc.). The thing is, I was already reasonably happy with my results on Hinge, so I don’t think lack of attractiveness is the biggest issue. My issue right now is that the pipeline has dried up.
Oof, and you're considering pursuing a second degree on top of that? No offense, but that there might be a good chunk of your problem.
Anyway, your milage but in my experience Trivia and Karaoke are actually pretty good options for meeting people because you've got multiple "ice-breakers" built into the premise. "Hey, I'm flying solo tonight you mind if I join your team I got [subject covered]", "I've always loved that song", etc... The trick is to find a regular Event/Spot that has a decent distribution of Men and Women and make it part of your routine. Get to the point where you know the staff and they know you, so that you're not "just some creep on the prowl" you're "Mike the engineer, who does a really good Jon Bon Jovi". Networking isn't just for business.
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Do you expect the job to stay like that for a long period of time? Do you have any plan for what you will do if you do find someone?
It seems like the lack of slack in our day is both making it more difficult to pursue the sorts of social events where you might meet a woman, and also will be hard to manage if you do find a compatible woman, let alone one considering a serious relationship with the possibility of marriage.
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The only women who will entertain a conversation in public with a stranger all have boyfriends and are desperate for attention. The ones who are single will say "Ihaveaboyfriend" as you open your mouth.
I've heard people in real life refer to dating apps as the only socially acceptable way to meet people, unless you're in a group of friends and they're in a group of friends, otherwise you're a creeper. Direct paraphrase. Mind you, I was also present for some uber-progressive woman making fun of dudes' pictures on Hinge, then saying that she'd never go on a Hinge date because she doesn't want to get assaulted. Someone asked her why she was on Hinge then, but by that point I had checked out of the conversation and that entire social circle.
Again, this is something I keep seeing people post online but I just don't see in the world around me. Part of me suspects some sort of coordinated psyop by the tech-bros who own shares in social media companies 'cause near as I can tell @100ProofTollBooth's got it right. There's never been a better time to just go outside and talk to girls.
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Where do you actually meet women though? My hobbies are all men.
Pick a spot with a decent distribution and just go. Honestly @iprayiam3's suggestion isn't half bad.
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Buy a very cute dog of a smart breed, and train him to, on a subtle cue, 'accidentally' get the leash tangled around a woman and her dog. Then take him to a crowded park / trail and troll for hotties.
That doesn't work either. The only time women engage with my cute dog in public is when I'm walking with a female friend, it's a night-and-day difference. Or if their boyfriend is around, then they'll engage with the dog.
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