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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   3437 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for July 16, 2023

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

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Suppose you know a secret about something.

And that secret would be profoundly distressing and traumatizing to a person if said person learned about it.

And there are no practical benefits to that person learning about it (ie learning about it would not incentivise said person to act in a way to protect themselves, or to do something beneficial in any way)

Do you think it would it be ethical to tell the secret to that person or not? What conditions are relevant in deciding whether to tell them or not?

Would they want to know?

It’s probably not ethical to lie about it. That’s not an obligation to share, unprompted.

I agree with @RenOS. Overthinking it won’t help anyone. Consider responding honestly if asked, but otherwise, saying nothing.

Ironically I increasingly think that these kind of thought experiments are net negative to pose, i.e. making people think about them causes them to make real-world decisions that are worse by most reasonable metrics than if they haven't thought about them. The reason is that they regularly make assumptions that are almost universally untrue, in this example the claim that we have perfect knowledge whether it has practical benefits to the person. Some people will then over-apply their conclusions from these thought-experiments into the real world (in this case, keeping secrets by finding lazy, convenient excuses), and some people will smell that something is funny and go to the other extreme (in this case, practising impractical radical honesty).

In the end, the extremely vague "Think about how you think this particular person will react to you telling them the secret, whether that reaction is good by what you judge their own moral position to be, whether that reaction is good by your own moral position and to you worth the hassle, how likely they are to find out regardless, how likely they are to find out you knew, how they'll react when they find out that you knew but didn't tell them, and so on" and further weighted by things like your own risk tolerance will lead to the best decisions. This is obviously quite bothersome to do and explains the appeal of simple approaches like radical honesty or "it's none of my business", which are also the best starting points for less important secrets which aren't worth making a huge calculus of (but which also runs the risk of falling prey to lazily call everything unimportant).

I find your judgement very pertinent. In real life there is alway a unique set of conditions to be taken into consideration, and intuition is often better than a pre determined set of rules.

Still I find thought experiments of an ideal environment, while not applicable, are good to understand our own thoughts and values. Just have to be careful.

I'd try to find a way to ask this hypothetical question in a group that includes the person, then abide by their answer.

My own answer would be that I prefer unhappiness over ignorance, but I'd hate to impose my preference on others if I could figure out how to avoid risking that.

Motte: In my opinion the compassionate thing to do is to mitigate any suffering and withhold the truth in regard to any interpersonal interactions. Bailey: I would even take this to a grander level and say that certain Big Lies can be ethical as they allow humans to cope with almost unbearable sorrow.

Agreed, Noble Lies are a thing for a reason. Humans must rationalize and believe in fictions to escape the horror of knowing your own death is coming.

A good friend of mine found out that a mutual friend’s father had a long reputation as a rapist in the country they were both from. It’s likely his wife / said mutual friend’s mother knew, but had never said anything to her daughter. My friend told her, and it ruined her relationship with both parents and her wider family, and with my friend. Nobody was ever brought to justice or anything. Some things should stay hidden. But it’s impossible to advise unless you provide at least some detail.

That is an interesting case. But I am thinking there are benefits in her knowing it: there is a good chance she would find out later in a worse way, or that she could have been in danger, or that her knowing it could help bring about justice. Can't say for sure. But what if we could reasonably predict that none of these things would happen. Would it still be a good thing to tell her?

Knowing a secret is a burden, I think that's why we usually want to tell (especially if it's not our secret). But part of carrying that burden is, I think, that we use our discretion with whether we reveal the secret to others. "Deserves to know" is more complicated than it seems, we discussed this maybe a year ago here with regards to infidelity (a lot of the reason cheating partners confess is because their own burden is too much to bear, it has nothing to do with the partner they are humiliating and disappointing). There are no clear answers, but it made me think more about whether these things should be shared. If someone does some DNA testing and finds out their elderly parent's father wasn't who they thought he was, should they tell them (assume both biological and legal father are dead)?

Generally yes I would tell them. The truth has no value if it cannot be distinguished from lies. The only reason the person is not currently distressed and traumatized is because they trust that that bad thing has not yet happened. If whatever happened is relevant to them then they should know about it.

Very consistent and straightforward approach - though some may call it controversial. Thanks for sharing your opinion

Hmm, I would say that if the secret is like "AI will kill everyone and there's nothing you can do to stop it", don't tell her. If the secret is like "your father was a murderer" or "you have terminal cancer", then do tell her, because it's "her business" in some sense. Another factor is how much knowing the secret will eat at you over time, if the person is a close friend of yours, keeping this secret forever will be a great burden and you should tell them, if it's just an acquaintance, then not so much.

If you think you're good at acting and deception, you could even indirectly ask for their opinion on the matter, all you have to do is invent a new secret with all the relevant characteristic about some distant friend, then ask them whether you should tell your distant friend.

Under the facts as you state them, no. Because you have not mentioned any benefits to anyone from disclosure. If an action only results in harm, then it seems to me that the action is wrongful. Your hypothetical would be more interesting if you posited some benefit from disclosure.

That is a pretty straightforward way to put it, and probably a good approach. But I want to challenge it. Some people want to know things even when it does not lead to anything good - such as a cheating partner, or that they are adopted, or they were conceived by sexual violence. Their life may be worse after, but they do not wish they stayed ignorant instead. Is that a good reason to tell them?

Yes, that's an example of a benefit: respecting the preferences/personhood/whatever of the other person. And of course there are other benefits to some of them, such as knowing they are adopted, which might get them access to info re susceptibility to genetic disease.

It depends on the secret I would say. There is a sphere of things which people have a right to know about from friends and things which might not strictly be their business.

(ie learning about it would not incentivise said person to act in a way to protect themselves, or to do something beneficial in any way)

For one I'd say that's only your judgment on the situation, which may not align with the judgment of the person who received that information. Secondly I'd say that a person's interest in knowing information can extend past the practical benefit, e.g. finding out you were adopted may cause a lot of distress without providing you with much useful knowledge beyond what genetic diseases run in your family (which as I understand it can be learned through direct testing), but we still generally think it's fair to tell adults this information.

What conditions are relevant in deciding whether to tell them or not?

There are outs for this kind of thing. If you think they would lash out at you for telling them then they're mostly just a victim of their own short-tempered character. If they're having a particularly hard time in their life then perhaps now might be the best time to tell them.

The being adopted case is an interesting one, we in general assume that it is not ethical to not tell someone they are adopted - maybe partly because we think the person will eventually find out anyway, so better tell them now.

True, kind, necessary. Needs at least two. This secret is unkind and unnecessary, so it fails.

Telling someone they are adopted would be true, probably not kind, and probably not necessary - it could be necessary in case their genetic history is relevant, or if there is a good risk they would find out in a more traumatic way. But assume a case where it is not reasonable to assume the necessity of it. Would it be ethical to hide that secret?

Am I having a deja vu, or have you asked this question before?

Repost since i did not get engagement in the other thread

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