There's a pretty big set of changes coming down the pipe. These shouldn't have much impact on users - it's all internal bookkeeping - but there's a lot of it, and if there's bugs, it might cause issues. Let me know if anything weird happens! Weird, in this case, is probably "comments you can see that you think you shouldn't be able to", or "comments you can't see that you think you should be able to", or anything else strange that goes on. As an example, at one point in development reply notifications stopped working. So keep your eyes out for that. I'm probably pushing this in a day or two, I just wanted to warn people first.
EDIT: PUSH COMPLETE, let me know if anything goes wrong
Are you a software developer? Do you want to help? We can pretty much always use people who want to get their hands dirty with our ridiculous list of stuff to work on. The codebase is in Python, and while I'm not gonna claim it's the cleanest thing ever, it's also not the worst and we are absolutely up for refactoring and improvements. Hop over to our discord server and join in. (This is also a good place to report issues, especially if part of the issue is "I can't make comments anymore.")
Are you somewhat experienced in Python but have never worked on a big codebase? Come help anyway! We'll point you at some easy stuff.
Are you not experienced in Python whatsoever? We can always use testers, to be honest, and if you want to learn Python, go do a tutorial, once you know the basics, come join us and work on stuff.
(if you're experienced in, like, any other language, you'll have no trouble)
Alt Accounts: Let's talk about 'em. We are consistently having trouble with people making alt accounts to avoid bans, which is against the rules, or making alt accounts to respond to their own stuff, which isn't technically against the rules, and so forth. I'm considering a general note in the rules that alt accounts are strongly discouraged, but if you feel the need for an alt, contact us; we're probably okay with it if there's a good reason. (Example: We've had a few people ask to make effortposts that aren't associated with their main account for various reasons. We're fine with this.) If you want to avoid talking to us about it, it probably isn't a good reason.
Feedback wanted, though! Let me know what you think - this is not set in stone.
Single-Issue Posting: Similarly, we're having trouble with people who want to post about one specific topic. "But wait, Zorba, why is that a problem" well, check out the Foundation:
The purpose of this community is to be a working discussion ground for people who may hold dramatically different beliefs. It is to be a place for people to examine the beliefs of others as well as their own beliefs; it is to be a place where strange or abnormal opinions and ideas can be generated and discussed fairly, with consideration and insight instead of kneejerk responses.
If someone's posting about one subject, repeatedly, over and over, then it isn't really a discussion that's being had, it's prosletyzing. I acknowledge there's some value lost in removing this kind of behavior, but I think there's a lot of value lost in having it; letting the community be dominated by this behavior seems to lead to Bad Outcomes.
Feedback wanted, though! Let me know what you think - this is also not set in stone.
Private Profiles: When we picked up the codebase, it included functionality for private profiles, which prevents users from seeing your profile. I probably would have removed this if I'd had a lot more development time, but I didn't. So it exists.
I'm thinking of removing it anyway, though. I'm not sure if it provides significant benefit; I think there's a good argument that anything posted on the site is, in some sense, fair game to be looked over.
On the other hand . . . removing it certainly does encourage ad hominem arguments, doesn't it? Ad hominems are kind of useless and crappy and poison discourse. We don't want people to be arguing about the other person's previously-stated beliefs all the time, we want people to be responding to recent comments, in general.
But on the gripping hand . . .
. . . well, I just went to get a list of the ten most prolific users with hidden profiles. One of them has a few quality contributions! (Thanks!) Two of them are neutral. And seven of them have repeated antagonism, with many of those getting banned or permabanned.
If there's a tool mostly used by people who are fucking with the community, maybe that's a good argument for removing the tool.
On the, uh, other gripping hand, keep in mind that private profiles don't even work against the admins. We can see right through them (accompanied by a note that says "this profile is private"). So this feature change isn't for the sake of us, it's for the sake of you. Is that worth it? I dunno.
Feedback wanted! Again!
The Volunteer System is actually working and doing useful stuff at this point. It doesn't yet have write access, so to speak, all it's doing is providing info to the mods. But it's providing useful info. Fun fact: some of our absolute most reliable and trustworthy volunteers don't comment. In some cases "much", in some cases "at all". Keep it up, lurkers! This is useful! I seriously encourage everyone to click that banner once a day and spend a few minutes at it. Or even just bookmark the page and mash the bookmark once in a while - I've personally got it on my bookmark bar.
The big refactor mentioned at the top is actually for the sake of improving the volunteer system, this is part of what will let it turn into write access and let us solve stuff like filtered-comments-in-limbo, while taking a lot of load off the mods' backs and maybe even making our moderation more consistent. As a sort of ironic counterpart to this, it also means that the bar might show up less often.
At some point I want to set up better incentives for long-time volunteers, but that takes a lot of code effort. Asking people to volunteer more often doesn't, so that's what I'm doing.
(Feedback wanted on this also.)
I want your feedback on things, as if that wasn't clear. These threads basically behave like a big metadiscussion thread, so . . . what's your thoughts on this whole adventure? How's it going? Want some tweaks? Found a bug? Let me know! I don't promise to agree but I promise to listen.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I would have thought there are at least two prominent anti-semites here? Three if you count Foreverlurker?
The specific issue does make a difference. There are enough of these posts that a casual scroll through the CW round-up on any given day is likely to run into at least one of them, and the regular presence of narratives about how the perfidious Jews are plotting to destroy Western civilisation is something that's going to make a lot of people uncomfortable, or contribute to the perception that the Motte is a 'Nazi forum' or somesuch. Heck, the top post in the roundup thread right now is one directly engaging with anti-semitic conspiracy content, and it isn't even by any of the 2/3 regular anti-semites we have.
I can very much understand people not wanting this garbage on their doorstep. If nothing else, it makes it much, much harder to recommend anything here to outsiders.
"Oh, the Motte, that's the site with the Nazis" - that's not a reaction one particularly wants to deal with, is it?
I think, in my ideal world, it would be "The Motte, that's the site where no position is censored for being outside the Overton window, not even literal holocaust denial, as long as you can be civil and support your arguments. And somehow the quality of discourse is still better than pretty much any other political discussion forum".
But it's a very fine line between that and "The Motte, that's the newest fsr right echo chamber, like Gab / Voat before it. It's where all the witches and bigots and crazy people go when all of the normal person platforms have banned them. Sad, but what else could you possibly expect from a forum that doesn't even ban literal Nazis".
Right, exactly. I'm really not trying to say that we should just ban all the bad people. It's more - how can we get on and stay on the right side of that fine line?
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If “Jewish Question”-type threads are keeping such outsiders away, then those threads are features, not bugs, and kings like SecureSignals are doing God’s work in helping to keep pearl-clutching scolds away.
I don't think one has to be a pearl-clutching scold in order to simply not want to hang out in the place with the anti-semites and the Holocaust deniers.
What does anti-Semite or white nationalist even mean?
I can be called an anti-Semite for saying Jews have higher average IQ or the Jews control Hollywood. Both are basically factually correct. Many would call me a white nationalist for saying western culture is better. Which I do believe. A white nationalist today can mean anything from a literal KKK member to someone who thinks advanced math should be taught in schools.
Certainly, and I would never advocate for the mere accusation of anti-semitism or racism to be a superweapon. We can all agree that definitions of those words that are so broad as to include even people who just state obvious facts are ridiculous and should not be heeded.
However, I'd argue that there are minimalist definitions of anti-semitism, racism, white nationalism, etc., that are much more defensible - and which some posters here definitely meet. A relatively high average IQ among Ashkenazim or overrepresentation of Jewish people in Hollywood are just facts, and being aware of them does not make one anti-semitic. However, when one starts talking about believing that all Jews have an inherent racial tendency to parasitise upon other cultures and subvert them for Jewish benefit, then I think one can plausibly argue that's anti-semitic. The fact that accusations of anti-semitism are sometimes thrown around promiscuously does not mean that, say, Hitler wasn't anti-semitic, and it seems possible to plot people on a spectrum from not-at-all-anti-semitic on the one end to 'literally Hitler' on the other end.
Ok so this is fair. You get my point that people will try and label anyone as “literally Hitler” to get a group banned. The issue I see with banning people is you can’t ban people for being an anti-Semite or white nationalist (I’m probably a white nationalist for 20-30% of the population) you have to ban them for a very specific belief. You can’t ban someone for being a holocaust denier but you could because they deny that over 5 million Jews died in the holocaust. It would be a legitimate headache though to list the beliefs that we believe are agreed upon bad.
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If their presence would make you uncomfortable independent of the factual correctness of their claims, and also your response to that discomfort is to call for them to be banned (rather than leaving yourself), I think you would fall into the "pearl clutching scold" category by the ideals of this space.
I don't think that actually describes you, but it does describe a particular type of poster that I have run into numerous times, and I worry that it would describe the friends you are hesitant to introduce to this space.
I did just say explicitly that I don't support banning SecureSignals just because he's wrong and makes bad arguments. I think the question here is not whether he's wrong (he is) or whether being wrong should be a bannable offense (it shouldn't be), but about whether the recurrence of radioactive subjects like this is a bad thing for the Motte, or otherwise obnoxious, and if so, what if anything we might want to do about it.
I do appreciate all the concerns about freedom to express controversial positions, and I'm on your side most of the time, but I also don't want the Motte to go further down the road to Witchville, as I put it.
Yeah, I do get the desire to avoid becoming witchville. In my ideal world that's accomplished by moderating heavily for effortposting and high quality engagement and discussion, rather than by moderating more heavily for some subjects than others (which means "wrong and makes bad arguments and refuses to change their mind and refuses to change the subject" would be a bannable offense).
This could result in us becoming witchville anyway, at least by some standards, if a factually correct position ends up being far outside the Overton window. But in that case I think it would be better to become witchville-with-high-quality- discussion than another-high-quality-debate-forum-with-bannable-positions.
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Right. Just like one doesn't have to be a pearl-clutching scold in order to simply not want to hang out in the place with the various 'ists and 'phobes.
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That’s precisely the mindset I’m accusing the mods of having; I think that they see this particular issue as radioactive in a way that other issues aren’t, and are keen to prevent this community from becoming the “den of witches” which, ironically, Scott Alexander wanted to avoid his forum from becoming, sparking the creation/exodus of this forum in the first place.
I’m not hiding the fact that I have a special interest in wanting this community to remain an open forum for witches to participate as members in good standing; white identitarian ideas aren’t quite as radioactive as antisemitism, but they’re not far behind. (And certainly the two memeplexes are often intimately linked.) I don’t want the mods to start cracking down on topics that are likely to scare away normies, because I would fear that my own ideas would quickly find their way into the chopping block.
If that means that this is a forum which will remain repellent to outsiders, that is a price that I am willing to pay, but of course I would say that. Again, I’m not hiding the skin that I have in the game. I think that to some extent the mods probably are, and I’m trying to draw that out.
You're not entirely wrong, and you're not entirely right.
Speaking for myself (no other mods), I do want Holocaust deniers and white supremacists to be allowed to speak here. I don't want to ban you or @SecureSignals even though I find your views noxious. (Unironically, I really do appreciate both of you for your useful articulations of these positions.) However, no, I don't want this place to become Scott Alexander's den of witches either. He accurately identified the problem, and never identified a solution, and neither have we, but (you) witches are the only ones who don't see a problem with becoming a den of witches. Yes, I understand, from your point of view, you are the good guys and that you are seen as bad guys is the entire problem which you want to change. Unfortunately for you, you're fighting the world, and we are of the world.
If we ever get to the point where this place is overrun by white supremacists and Holocaust deniers and most of my mod time is spent fielding reports about Da Joos Da Joos Da Joos, I will concede victory to the witches and you can celebrate my departure.
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Well, to be blunt, I think the Motte is indeed at the Seven Zillion Witches stage of subculture evolution, and unfortunately once you reach that point you fall off the side of the cliff and eventually only get witches.
There's some sort of balance that has to be found. You don't want to be so committed to what's 'normal' or popular that any or all dissenting opinions are frozen out. At the same time, if you're radically open, you become a den of witches. Both Normieland and Witchville are bad places to have conversations. I understand and agree with not wanting to become Normieland, but at the same time the Motte is getting much too far into Witchville territory for my liking.
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And this is where you lose me. "Oh, I'd love to recommend this place to my lovely friends, who are going to throw a tantrum and storm out at the slightest whiff of wrongthink, but alas, I cannot, for there are too many Nazis here". Oh, what a great loss.
I would say it's possible to talk about degrees? I think this conversation is happening now because we're talking about rather more than a 'whiff' of wrongthink.
Doesn't change the fact that the kind of person giving you hard time for this place being "full of Nazis" is likely to make further demands, if given an inch.
I'm uncomfortable about posting in a place that, judging from likes, contains significant support for explicit anti-semitism, and the hypothesis of a Jewish racial consciousness that leads them to seek to destroy the white race.
How do you think I would feel about telling someone else that there was a great post here that I thought made a good point? Even if that point is totally unrelated?
Do not invite them. I won’t speak for the whole forum and say “we don’t want them,” but I will say very forcefully that I do not want your normie friends here, I do not want their sensibilities to have any influence whatsoever on the direction of discourse norms on this sub, and I hope that this place stays icky enough that you remain unwilling to recommend it to them.
Do you think I like the fact that when I make what I think is a really good post here, I can’t go and brag about it or show it off to some of my smarter normie friends? If we lived in a better world, my ideas would have much wider acceptance and a place firmly inside the Overton Window, and I could show this place to people I respect, or at least acknowledge the existence of the forum and the fact that I post here. But we live in the shitty timeline, so I have to conceal the existence of The Motte, and of my profile in particular, to anyone who would be interested. This is ultimately a good thing for the forum. It should remain a hidden sanctuary, spoken of only in a vague and evasive manner, so that us witches can continue to practice our witchcraft in peace.
I think it's more of a gradient or a spectrum, really, and no one is either totally normie or radical, but I think you misunderstand the context. I might be talking to a bright, right-curious, burned ex-liberal type who tells me that he's really keen to find a place where he can discuss controversial political topics openly. Should I suggest he visit the Motte?
(I have recommended the Motte in its Reddit form to people before in exactly this situation.)
At the moment, I don't think I would, and a big part of that is because of the preponderance of certain positions, particularly those obsessed with the Jews. Heck, do you think I'd recommend the Motte to a bright young controversialist who happens to be Jewish? Heck no.
If cis white males have to tolerate the persistent hatred from the rest of the internet then everyone else can have a little bit of thicker skin here. Hell, if your friend is jewish, they're statistically more likely to be smart enough to understand why.
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You do know we have lots of Jewish posters here, right?
I think Jewish posters here are specifically selected for the kinds of Jewish posters who don't mind being in a space that regularly portrays them as some sort of malevolent parasitic subrace. That's not exactly a filter I want to run everyone through.
I'm not Jewish myself, of course, but I have been in online spaces before where my identity is constantly mocked and criticised and portrayed as a civilisational threat that must be marginalised at all costs, and while I can handle that to an extent, it is not a position that I wish for anyone else to be in. Especially not in a place whose purpose is explicitly civil sharing of ideas. The top-level culture war post still links 'In Favour of Niceness, Community, and Civilisation', after all.
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As uncomfortable as you are with this place, you're able to compartmentalize - "there's some bad dudes here, but every once in a while someone makes an interesting point about something". By saying we should sanitize this place in order for you to feel comfortable inviting your friends here, you're implying they would be unable to compartmentalize in a similar way, and all potential issues with giving inches / taking miles aside, I am not particularly interested in hanging out with people like that. If I was, I'd still be on Reddit.
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