site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   33388 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of April 17, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I am strongly of the opinion that since neoliberal PMC jobs are the easiest to automatic with AI, there will be incredibly strong regulation banning AI from taking the jobs of the PMC. The power to regulate is the power to destroy, and as incapable of actual productivity the PMC and their legion of bullshit jobs are, they know how to run a grift and bask in their own self importance.

No, what you need to fear from AI is when Facebook fires up an instance of AutoGPT for each user and tasks it with keeping them doom scrolling for as long as is possible. If you thought "the algorithm" was already amoral and sanity shredding, you ain't seen nothing yet. That was a mere baby, feebly hand tuned by meat that thinks (or thinks it thinks). When the AI is fully unleashed on slaving our attention spans to our screens, it's going to be like how Fentanyl turbo charged opioid deaths. You're gonna start seeing people literally starving to death staring at their phones. Actually, nix that, they'll die of dehydration first. I momentarily forgot that nearly always happens first.

I'm gonna register this prediction now too. Apparently Ai has trouble with fingers. You'll know it's gotten loose when there is a new tiktok trend of young people amputating all their fingers. The AI will have decided it's easier to convince us to get rid of our own fingers than figure out how to draw them better. Given the rates of Tiktok induced mental illness, it would probably be right in that assessment.

I am strongly of the opinion that since neoliberal PMC jobs are the easiest to automatic with AI, there will be incredibly strong regulation banning AI from taking the jobs of the PMC. The power to regulate is the power to destroy, and as incapable of actual productivity the PMC and their legion of bullshit jobs are, they know how to run a grift and bask in their own self importance.

I highly doubt this will happen. You talk as if the PMC is a giant union where everyone is aligned, which shows you don't understand the social context there and are clearly just poo-pooing your outgroup.

People in the PMC with power have capital, whether it's political, intellectual, or financial. The financial movers and shakers will not agree to regulating AI, at least until they have gotten their piece of the pie. Even if they do, it will take years and years to get everyone to agree on a framework.

You've also got the AI companies themselves. Altman has come out and said he doesn't think regulation at this stage is a good idea, and he's got an incredible amount of political and intellectual capital. Many people in government, for good reason, see Altman as one of the most important figure in the world right now. They don't want to piss him off.

I'm gonna register this prediction now too. Apparently Ai has trouble with fingers. You'll know it's gotten loose when there is a new tiktok trend of young people amputating all their fingers. The AI will have decided it's easier to convince us to get rid of our own fingers than figure out how to draw them better. Given the rates of Tiktok induced mental illness, it would probably be right in that assessment.

This would be a rad short story. An AI that gets 'frustrated' at its own limitations against the real world and it's solution is to just sand off all the sharp edges that are giving it problems.

Like it genetically engineers all the cows to be spherical so it's physics simulations can be more accurate.

An AI that gets 'frustrated' at its own limitations against the real world and it's solution is to just sand off all the sharp edges that are giving it problems.

I'm obligated to point out that this already happened, the AI was capitalism, the sharp edges were all direct human interactions, and our atomized broken society is the result.

I would be interested in seeing this thought/analogy expanded.

I thought I got this idea from Mark Fisher or Nick Land, but random googling isn't leading me to any obvious writing of theirs on this specific concept. Come to think of it maybe it was one of IlForte's pithier comments. Regardless you should read both of them.

Seeing Like a State plus a broad view of what constitutes a "state," perhaps?

I thought I had seen later Scottposts applying this logic to capitalism.

His Meditations on Moloch sounds like this vein too.

I am strongly of the opinion that since neoliberal PMC jobs are the easiest to automatic with AI, there will be incredibly strong regulation banning AI from taking the jobs of the PMC. The power to regulate is the power to destroy, and as incapable of actual productivity the PMC and their legion of bullshit jobs are, they know how to run a grift and bask in their own self importance.

This is exactly why the crossbow and handgonnes never took off and why we still live under a feudal system ruled over by our lieges and ladies.

More seriously, this technology is too valuable to not use, anyone who does use it is going to gain a massive advantage over anyone that doesn't, its use is inevitable.

More seriously, this technology is too valuable to not use, anyone who does use it is going to gain a massive advantage over anyone that doesn't, its use is inevitable.

The same is true of nuclear power. It's the only technology that will allow us to hit emission targets and keep the grid stable with cheap, reliable power.

But we've built 3 nuclear power plants in as many decades, and our infrastructure is crumbling and less reliable than ever. Our ruling class simply does not care so long as they can keep living that 0.01% life. Even now they are setting preposterous 10 year EV targets, despite not putting a dime towards building out a domestic EV supply chain or infrastructure. Including upgrading our electric grid to deal with the massive increase in demand all those EVs will create. Which brings us back to the nuclear power they scorn so much.

Your appeals to a reasonable nation performing certain obvious reasonable tasks are pointless. This is clown world. You need to think dumber.

The same is true of nuclear power. It's the only technology that will allow us to hit emission targets and keep the grid stable with cheap, reliable power.

Exactly. The general population believes what it was told for 50 years - nuclear power is something immensely dangerous and deadly, something that can explode at any moment, kill millions and turn the whole country into uninhabitable desert full of motocycle riding mutants.

Now, imagine if normies are told:

THE COMPUTER can kill you. Yes, THE COMPUTER can shred you into paperclips, without warning. And not only you, but everyone, everyone in the whole world. Yes, even ordinary computer in your son's room can do it.

Do not wait for your doom. Say something, do something.

The problem is, we've already had hacker scares for years, I don't know what it would really take for people to realize the threat outside of re-hashed Terminator references.

The American public won't give up guns, do you think they'll give up computers?

Heck, even if it's just AIs they're told to give up, forces that want to do that will have to move fast, because every passing moment it reaches more hands, and the hands that have it are gonna hold on tight. And at some point soon, we will reach a point of cultural no return on everyone having these tools.

The general population believes what it was told for 50 years - nuclear power is something immensely dangerous and deadly, something that can explode at any moment, kill millions and turn the whole country into uninhabitable desert full of motocycle riding mutants.

Again, at least according to this poll, 76% of Americans - the most relevant demographic for this forum - favor nuclear energy. Even the opponents do not necessarily hold the most alarmist and charged view of nuclear as a power source.

Nuclear power has a lot of benefits, but it takes a significant amount of time and money to get online, with the benefits being generally diffused. The number of organisations that can actually get a nuclear power plant online for long enough that they can start to make a profit is quite small.

AI is comparatively cheap, the changes are quick and easily observable and the pay off for an individual willing to utilise it is substantial. As a class medievial European nobility may have benefited from a complete ban on crossbows and handguns, but the ratio of costs to return of employing these weapons meant that anyone who chose to defect and take up their use would out compete those who did not. The same is true of AI, it cannot be ignored.

Your appeals to a reasonable nation performing certain obvious reasonable tasks are pointless. This is clown world. You need to think dumber.

I'm appealing to human greed and desire for power. You need to think smarter.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats