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ZorbaTHut  2yr ago (text post)   45539 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 5, 2022

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Cross post: (rdrama):

Title: Most r-slurs still don't understand one of the central points of rick and morty.

THEY ARE ALL UNLOVABLE ASSHOLES! YOU AREN'T SUPPOSED TO ROOT FOR THEM! (Spoilers ahead)

  1. Jerry - would likely sacrifice his family to save himself. Had no trouble abandoning his original family to live with his accidental dimension family. He also crashed a plane full of people in that one episode. He is a stupidity based WMD who doesn't even realize the damage he caused.

  2. Summer - Pretty much a sociopath. Only cares about family to a degree, would gladly perv on hot guys. Has no qualms killing aliens. Doesn't care about how much destruction Rick has ever caused. She got high on planets that were about to die. Her whole personality is saying," whatever." Then stabbing you with a kitchen knife before going back to texting on her phone.

  3. Beth - If Summer is a wannabe sociopath then Beth is a legit sociopath. Only thing maintaining her humanity is likely her family. As a child she only ever had Rick make things for her that would hurt other people. Is self centered and will accept anyone in the world who will kiss her ass and flatter her. Hasn't been seen actively murdering anyone so far and is likely the most normie competent person in her family. Still shrugged off her planet getting destroyed. Wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice Morty to save Summer.

  4. Morty - Over the seasons he grows more psychopathic every season. He has destroyed at least two alien civilizations on screen that I remember, and likely has caused way more suffering off screen. Every season his conscience grows smaller when it comes to anything that's not his family. Will definitely murder you in your sleep for Rick. No longer hesitates when murdering people who cross him. Never came back to save his Cronenberg family. Only Jerry survived and Survivor Jerry called him out on it.

  5. Rick - Rick the worst of them all. Left his entire planet on groundhod day settings but forgot to turn off aging. Accidentally got back and was at least decent enough to end their suffering before leaving. That's Earth one he killed. In season 1 or 2 he accidentally cronenberged another Earth before leaving. That's two Earth's destroyed. In the latest season episode his little experiment got released and destroyed the entire Earth. That's three Earth's he has destroyed due to his fuckups. This isn't even counting all the countless planets, species, and probably even universes he has destroyed. Rick is basically the closest thing to an Eldritch abomination in human form any media has ever had. His morality has zero connection to other humans, he sees things on a scale so huge that entire realities become irrelevant. He is an inventor who could create anything but his final legacy is that of destroying realities. Multiple hell's have overflowed with the number of dead his actions have sent there. Rick is a pure evil to anyone who experiences his touch that is not a friend, a group of friends that are barely a dozen lifeforms against the trillions he has likely killed so far easily.

Every season they make the family do even more horrible things, and each time the r-slurs and spergs cheer. At this point it's as if the creators are just trying to see how fucked up and cruel they can make the actions of the family before the audience finally decides that yes, these are clearly not rolemodels or anybody to look up to, but that moment never comes. That moment likely will never come, because for that moment to come there has to be some self awareness, some capacity to self reflect, and perhaps the success of Rick and Morty for all the wrong reasons is the final proof, that this country has lost its way, and there is nothing left except mindless consumption followed by death.

  • -39

Rick never pays a meaningful price for being a sociopath or has his sociopathy treated as seriously bad by the show so it's easy to root for him. Plus he's smart and powerful and does cool things. "Watch these sociopaths do cool stuff and be rewarded" is basically the value proposition if the show.

Exactly. You get it.

Ok but what about Mr. Poopybutthole?

Friends with Rick, bad by associating with terrible people.

Why do you think people are rooting for them?

Because the show keeps on selling.

Do you think the success of the American psycho was because Patrick Bateman was seen as a good person? The shows makes it pretty clear that none of the main cast are virtuous. This is not unusual in fiction, after all, All happy families are alike, but every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. Happy is boring.

I would not be surprised if there was a noticeable minority that unironically like the main character in American Psycho. As I understand it the actor who plays the titular character had to go on camera to explain to the people that you aren't supposed to root for the main character. Add in the fact that the main character does reflect a form of masculinity that from his own point of view makes him a tough person, and one can see where the fans who like him genuinely come from.

I have met people in real life who would admit they thought the character of the main psycho was a horrible guy but also a chad.

We've moved into "noticible minority" as a size estimate here and you agree that main characters don't need to be virtuous to be interesting. Is it magnitude thing? How much of the r&m fan base needs to think Rick is an admirable character for you to use the popularity to make your prognosis of society?

more than 10%. I assume if you have more than 10% sociopaths in your society then its likely gonna collapse.

It says nothing about you, society, morals, what fictional characters you root for. Or what music you like. Pretend you’re a genocidal genius or a vicious gangster, it has no moral relevance. Self-reflection just gets in the way of fun, people can only enjoy things “ironically” now. Or they have to condemn the characters before they watch, like a hayes code era title card ‘these are bad people, don’t try this at home’.

And Assholes fucking up is more entertaining than watching good people prosper. You could apply this rant (and people did say the same things) about seinfeld or breaking bad, any show worth his salt. Maybe the little house on the prairie is good, I wouldn’t know.

It says nothing about you, society, morals, what fictional characters you root for

Yet somehow people usually root for the underdog, the one saving the helpless maiden, the main character, etc. Also, stories are literally ways of communicating societal morals, and have been since we could talk. Stories and words evolved to communicate things, goals, and ... stories communicate them.

What does this even mean? Why are you rooting for a character if it doesn't mean anything?

Because it's fun, it enhances the proxy experience to be emotionally involved, like picking a sports team.

That's pretty much arguing that your thoughts have no influence on your actions and I disagree with that notion. Otherwise any mental abuse isn't real abuse.

Thoughts and desires are unlimited and uncontrollable. What prevents us from acting on them is downstream from the chaos, and it is only there that we can control it and assign moral responsibility.

What is mental abuse? Clear-cut, garden-variety example.

Mocking the mentally ill or looking down on everyone around you.

So by despising others, you telepathically harm them? That clears it up, I don't think mental abuse is real abuse.

no but nobody can spend their whole lives with their thoughts and opinions about someone desynched from how they treat them there will be leaks.

This is not a high-quality contribution.

Can you give me the standard that defines a high quality contribution? Thank you.

I think you are downvoted for referring to people as retards and spergs. The substance of your post is otherwise not bad (Rick & Morty was meant to illustrate bad people and bad behavior, this was lost on the public, which in turn illustrates badness of public).

I’m going to hijack your post make an unrelated one on television. I was watching LOTR and the racial diversity stuck out to me in a negative way. Is this because I’m racist? No, I don’t think my racism has anything to do with it. See, humans can naturally tell apart members of one tribe from another by appearance. I can tell French phenotype from Icelandic, Irish from Italian, Baltic from Russian. When people mate together in insularity over hundreds of years, then barring a caste system they generally begin to look the same. So when I see a whole bunch of dwarves living in a rock together, and then a token black dwarf is highlighted by camera, this throws off the believability of story. Because if the dwarves were one community, you wouldn’t have such variability in phenotype. I would prefer all the dwarves to be black, or all of them mulatto, then this weird hodgepodge of different phenotypes. If the dwarves are one people living together over thousands of years, then you really ought to cast them as one people, whatever shade of humanity you want.

Then there’s the question of the black elves, but I’m not sure if Middle Earth is ready for this discussion. The elves were always depicted as very Northern European, with a sort of pacified and peaceful temperament. The inclusion of even Southern Europeans sort of violates our intuition here, and yes I know Orlando Bloom is Southern European but that’s why they changed his hair color and skin tone and such. Speaking as someone with Southern European blood/family there are real differences in temperament.

I was watching LOTR and the racial diversity stuck out to me in a negative way

Is this because I’m racist? No

That seems like a contradiction.

humans can naturally tell apart members of one tribe from another by appearance. I can tell French phenotype from Icelandic, Irish from Italian, Baltic from Russian.

Yes but the show is not in any of those places.

When people mate together in insularity over hundreds of years, then barring a caste system they generally begin to look the same.

Those are elves, dwarves, and hobbit which were initially created with singing if I understand my LOTR lore correctly. Is it really that hard to believe that the LOTR equivalent of God built the species with multiple skin colors that could mix as they wish and still keep going like that?

So when I see a whole bunch of dwarves living in a rock together, and then a token black dwarf is highlighted by camera, this throws off the believability of story.

I can believe in dwarves but not black dwarves is pretty much a racist argument.

Because if the dwarves were one community, you wouldn’t have such variability in phenotype.

Why not, it's a planet made with magic, why should the same phenotype rules apply to a mystical fantasy land.

I would prefer all the dwarves to be black, or all of them mulatto, then this weird hodgepodge of different phenotypes. If the dwarves are one people living together over thousands of years, then you really ought to cast them as one people, whatever shade of humanity you want.

I disagree, maybe they just had a white or a black mutation break out in the community via natural mutation. Some people living in lactose intolerant community randomly developed lactose tolerance, some black humans had a random mutation and we got white humans. These are real world cases where one group emerged from within another insulated group.

Then there’s the question of the black elves, but I’m not sure if Middle Earth is ready for this discussion. The elves were always depicted as very Northern European, with a sort of pacified and peaceful temperament. The inclusion of even Southern Europeans sort of violates our intuition here

It doesn't though. I can watch the show and my intuition is not violated, they are all elves made with magic. Maybe it's because I come from a non-white culture so I am more used to seeing mixed color groups of people in real life.

So when I see a whole bunch of dwarves living in a rock together, and then a token black dwarf is highlighted by camera, this throws off the believability of story

I feel the same way about seeing model-thin women throw around male stunt actors who would crush them. It's obviously nonsense on if you have even a basic understanding of biology but it represents the priorities of the existing society/creative class (female equality, validating America's immigrant makeup)

I've taken a sort of blase "every society has its utterly unrealistic myths". More importantly: most Americans seem to accept this manifestly unrealistic take (and some apparently have come to actually believe it tracks reality). In fact: I would be the misogynist for insisting the girlboss utterly lose (which she should).

Of course, I'm probably not consistently sanguine on this and most people likely aren't either, especially as the nature of the myth changes.

LOTR is a fantasy genre, most of those thin women movies are action movies or thriller movies. I would argue that one requires a higher standard of realism than the other.

And that entire idea is just another societal construct.

There are action movies that have more ridiculous things than more grounded fantasy movies and what's fantastical about fantasy obviously varies by society (many societies find magic far less fantastical than Westerners do, and total female equality more fantastical)

then I would argue that we should accept both black elves and skinny women in our lives.

I have never watched this cartoon, I have no intention of watching this cartoon, and the only mentions I've seen of it have been online. And certainly not anyone over on the original Motte ever discussing this.

I think you are addressing the wrong audience: I don't know if there are Rick and Morty fans here, but I've never seen anyone praising it as a great show and we should all emulate them. Is it because it is supposed to have a reputation as 'the smart person's show' and so you think if Mottizens all (think they) are smart people, this must be a favourite show on here?

Not really, I just wrote something I liked and it felt partly culture warry so I shared it on the culture war thread. Nothing deeper than that.

I've watched a lot of R&M, but only because my enjoyment just barely outweighs my disgust for the show and its characters. And even then not always, there are times when I've had to turn off the TV because the episode was just too disgusting/crass/ugly/nihilistic.

Every season they make the family do even more horrible things, and each time the r-slurs and spergs cheer. At this point it's as if the creators are just trying to see how fucked up and cruel they can make the actions of the family before the audience finally decides that yes, these are clearly not rolemodels or anybody to look up to, but that moment never comes. That moment likely will never come, because for that moment to come there has to be some self awareness, some capacity to self reflect, and perhaps the success of Rick and Morty for all the wrong reasons is the final proof, that this country has lost its way, and there is nothing left except mindless consumption followed by death.

I don't think it's because people don't have the capacity to reflect. They can, they just subconsciously stop themselves from doing it because people under 40 are heavily irony-poisoned and can't handle sincerity. One hypothetical reflection could go something like this:

  1. Rick is an immoral, egotistical, cynical nihilist

  2. It's a bad thing to be an immoral, egotistical, cynical nihilist

  3. Immoral, egotistical, cynical nihilists are not role models or heroes; we should not emulate them or cheer for them

  4. All the R&M characters are like that

  5. Why am I watching this show about evil depressing people

  6. I'm going to watch something more edifying

I don't think most viewers can get past step 1 because step 2 requires making a judgement which it totally lame and uncool and, why are you taking it so seriously bro? And anyway (here come the rationalizations) it's just a cartoon, and what's wrong with portraying imperfect and broken** people? Aren't we all broken to some degree? Should we only portray normal and healthy people?

I have an undeveloped thought about how a lot of modern TV is just the evil twin of 1950s black hat/white hat cowboy movies. Back then the good guy was squeaky clean and always beat the bad guys by virtue of his superior courage and moral rectitude. It was all very "just world." But now, with shows like R&M and GoT it's not more nuanced, it's just an inversion of "just world" into "unjust world." Everyone is evil, sadistic, cowardly. The good are crushed by the bad. Fans try to tell me that it's full of nuance, but I'm sure you could tease nuance out of a John Wayne film if you tried hard enough.

**I can't stand the word "broken" the way it's used to describe moral failings or "traumas," but that's a rant for another post.

I appreciate you taking the time to send the reply. Thank you.

I'm sure you could tease nuance out of a John Wayne film if you tried hard enough.

Have you ever watched The Shootist? Wayne's last film, and since he was more or less typecast as an actor in/for Westerns early in his career, despite trying other roles, you can't really blame him for sticking to what worked.

I haven't, thanks for the recommendation.

Whoever wrote this copypasta is terrible at tolerating ambiguity. It reads like a kid throwing a temper tantrum because the guests at his birthday party aren't eating pizza the right way. No consumption is so mindless as letting someone else understand it for you. If adults are looking for role-models in cartoons they've got more pressing worries than people watching Rick and Morty wrong.

No consumption is so mindless as letting someone else understand it for you

I disagree. Consumption can be mindless if it's only providing you satisfaction but at the cost of so much of your time or effort that overall you are worse off in life by the time you are done consuming.

Example - heroin addicts.

the r-slurs and spergs cheer

First off you need to write like you want to include everyone in the conversation, which... shibboleths like this aren't an egregious violation, but they are still a violation of that rule.

The more serious violation, though, is that you're deliberately picking on a very general group, here. The real point of your post is not, it seems, to explain Rick & Morty--which would be fine!--but to dunk on "spergs" because they don't enjoy it on as many levels as you do.

So, don't do that.

Acknowledged. Be more clean in language used.

You're getting clowned by dramatards, just ban on sight if it smells fishy for a while.

I disagree, I may have immigrated from rdrama but my efforts are genuine.

I would even liken your stance to the equivalent of saying those people who just got off the boat don't sound like us, send them back to where they came from.

Give a chance to assimilation.

I disagree, I may have immigrated from rdrama but my efforts are genuine.

Who speaks like this? Firstly you know in your heart if you are trolling or not, you can just say "Yes/No I am trolling", its not a debate for you. Also you know if you are from drama or not, why are you saying you are "maybe from drama or not"?

Basically you sound like someone trying to play innocent.

Give a chance to assimilation.

Uhh no, read the rules.

You are expected to familiarize yourself with them, or lurk until you do.

As many others have said, even if you are posting bait, ultimately if it gets good conversation, some people might not mind having you post them around here.

So just make good posts if you are not trolling.

I may have come from means I come from. I believe that's a colloquial phrase?

I did familiarize myself with them, do you expect a baby to walk perfectly with its first step because you showed it a diagram and gif of how to walk?

last line acknowledged.

I mean it really makes no difference for me if someone follows the rules or not. I just gave you a heads up because the mods will inevitably ban someone if they don't do it a sufficient number of times. Actually I gave the mod a heads up because I browse rDrama myself and saw people talking about "invading" the motte.

For what its worth, the mods here are a lot more lenient than most mods on reddit, and maybe even in rDrama, I doubt many "edgy" places online have the stomach to discuss HBD and other topics discussed here on the regular without getting their panties in a knot. It's all fun and games until somebody gets hurt. I have been banned from multiple places that throw around the words 'retard' and 'faggot' with reckless abandon, when I actually brought up some juicy topics to talk about.

But anyways, don't let the down-votes discourage you, keep on posting, eventually you'll find a way to get your ideas across in a way that people here are receptive to.

Could you tell me what is HBD?

Thank you for the encouragement.

HBD is an acronym for 'Human biodiversity'.

It's the opposite of the blank slate theory. Proponents of HBD argue that the intelligence, personality, temperament, and a lot of other psychological/psychometric factors are genetically determined/influenced. Believing this leads you to a lot of inferences/conclusions that are very controversial to say out loud in polite society.

More comments

But it does matter if the OP is a troll. There are rules for a reason. No matter how many insightful, wholesome, galaxy-brain responses get made because of this bait, it’ll still be a turd on the doorstep.

I am not a troll. What would assure you of the same?

"Sir, this is a Wendy's Culture War thread"

Maybe next time post something about the Culture War?

I thought I did. My bad.

I do think opening your post with "crosspost from rdrama" should be an automatic bonk. We may be using their codebase, but that doesn't mean we need to accomodate their userbase.

Why? It was an effortpost on rdrama, why can I not reuse the effortpost?

Why do you assume nobody else gets this? I know a lot of people who like rick and morty and our biggest argument is whether they are satirising depression or narcissism. I don't know anyone who thinks rick is a role model, the closest are friends who wish they were like detoxed rick or morty or who fear they would become like rick if they were omnipotent.

As for this being the final proof this country has lost its way, or we are overrun with stupid, no. This isn't even new. Did you know that people used to throw things at and spit on actors who played villains on tv? They'd organise letter writing campaigns to the network to get them fired because the character they played was too mean. Some of the actors playing bad men and women in old soap operas got death threats daily. A guy shot Reagan to impress Jodie Foster's character in Taxi Driver. Those people have always existed and they always will.

I actually like Rick And Morty for similar reasons to Bojack Horseman. It's about watching a broken person who isn't in control of their own life, who is kinda legitimately trying, and who is actually learning and getting better, the question is just whether they'll figure out how to be a good person before the weight of all their past bad decisions catches up with them.

This is just a heartwrenching scene.

Those people have always existed and they always will.

Appeal to tradition fallacy.

  • -24

You may have the wrong impression of this forum. Argue like you are talking to another person, like you are sitting down and having a conversation about it. Don't just namedrop a fallacy. I rambled quite a bit and I demand the same. Especially when you are missing the point - I don't care if it is an appeal to tradition, half the planet has less than 100 iq. Have you ever seen a juggalo gathering? Or a tailgate at a kid rock concert? Or at almost any concert or event? Rick and morty fans aren't even a drop in the ocean. People have been stupid forever, so unless you are suggesting looking up to rick is stupider than any of that?

Also you didn't address my anecdotal fallacy.

I think nobody else gets this because of how famous Rick and Morty continues to be among the zoomer generation and the fact as you pointed out yourself that most of society has a lower than 100 iq.

Are they still saying r-slur instead of retard? I thought the reason they left, other that the admins neutering the sub, was so they didn't have to resort to euphemisms like r-slur

Edit: Turns out it's a macro. I should have expected it from the drama mods

Could you explain please, I do not understand.

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