This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Brilliant! This is just beyond the pale of stupidity.
I even think the described actions are probable and philosophically valid (but having many people assist with execution of the same office is a quite complicated and rather dehumanizes the office until the actual holder seems irrelevant.) There are plenty of historical analogues with idiot kings etc. Anyway, sliding all the way down the slope, unless Trump is flying the plane, deportations until the executive branch are illegal, yah enforcing murder's illegality is impossible because only the very, uh, lightning bolt which broke the stone on the 10 commandants, or the person who wrote e.g. §§ 1111 (calling murder unlawful) is eligible to detain or punish; but this person used a tool, a pen and we don't know whether someone else used this pen and was not... And can we just disregard all laws written by lobbyists?
Can someone steel man this?
This is exactly the reason why the 25th amendment should have been invoked for Biden, in that any question that the President is not indisputably in command of the powers of his office causes a constitutional crisis. There's a reason why the Vice President is temporarily sworn in when the President is put under anesthesia: even though it is highly unlikely he will die it A) ensures continuity of power and B) prevents mysterious commands issued from the surgery table.
That a cabal of staffers could usurp the power of the presidency should not even be in the realm of contemplatable, let alone allegeable.
The Democrats are taking the consequences of... whatever they did in Biden's tenure. It's up to them to demonstrate that the former president was compos mentis during such and such a date as they claim. Surely, remembering the past three months is not a extraordinary ask, is it? Or perhaps, in lieu of an extraordinary claim, the ex-president can write his own name in court.
Or perhaps drawing a clock would be more illustrative.
How does accessing the current mental faculties of Biden, whether satisfactory or not, prove anything about what they were like three months ago?
If he's old enough that a progress of months is enough to make meaningful differences in his cognition then he was not of sound mind to be president. A motivated actor (and Trump definitely is one) can hammer that wedge to say that all of Biden's acts and orders were not, in fact, issued by him, and thus the pardons are not pardons at all. They are frauds created by staffers without his knowledge.
Such an allegation is essentially unprovable, as you say. But so as long as the DoJ holds this opinion, things will get... interesting.
I feel obliged to note that this isn't necessarily the way it works. If he had a stroke between then and now, for instance, that's a sudden loss of brain function regardless of what that function was before the stroke. Hell, if he had a stroke before the use of the autopen affecting his motor control, that would explain why he couldn't sign his name without necessarily implying anything about his cognition.
Cognitive decline is not always gradual, and loss of motor control without cognitive decline is a thing (see: Stephen Hawking, who certainly wasn't a vegetable).
More options
Context Copy link
I think if it comes to a court considering a prosecution for which a defendant has held up a seemingly-valid pardon, they are going to require the DOJ to prove this claim. If that happens, they are gonna lose -- since this is, as we all seem (?) to say, unprovable.
It would be a highly costly victory for the other side, though: having to, in public, defend the veracity of very unpopular and uniquely broad pardons by refusing to cooperate and invoking privilege.
Eh; they were already unpopular. And it would be individual defendants invoking them not big name dems.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Under normal circumstances, I would expect this statute to cover it:
However if the President isn't compos mentis, there's a question whether he's able to functionally delegate those powers unless he had something previously set up, either via another statutory scheme which explicitly authorizes the devolution of powers to another executive officer, or via regulation and/or EO. And obviously here there's the factual question of whether the "senior staffer" who allegedly hijacked Biden's autopen" fills the relevant criteria of 301.
He clearly doesn't because EOP staffers are not Senate-confirmed. Either Biden ordered the pardon or it is illegal.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Trump doesn’t need to fly the plane, he needs to sign the order to fly the plane. The Constitution lays it out:
The office of the President isn’t vested with the authority to pardon, but the President himself. Ascertaining whether the President personally authorized or delegated a pardon is meet, just, and right given reasonable doubt.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link