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PaperclipPerfector  8d ago (text post)   33251 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 24, 2025

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Keanu Reeves character, "Speed", trying to be edgy: "Shoot the hostage. ... Go for the good wound and he can't get to the plane with her."

The_Nybbler, actually understanding edgy: "Shoot the hostage. Once they've obeyed the terrorist they can't legitimately complain of being treated as an enemy."

From "The Rules of Engagement are the problem" by John T. Reed:

Blackhawk Down

In Somalia, bad guys who had the U.S. Army Rangers pinned down in the Blackhawk Down incident would hold a woman or child against their chest as they crossed the street to prevent the squeamish Americans from firing at them. The Somalis would blast away at the American with their guns as they thus crossed the street. Apparently, it worked. I would have told my men to shoot the SOBs through the civilians.

Would that cause the civilians to have a bad day? Sure. But it would be a great thing for the remaining civilians because the fighters would immediately stop using that tactic as soon as the Americans started killing the fighters by shooting them through the human shields.

Like ransom

It’s like ransom. Paying ransom is generally illegal because it encourages continuation of the kidnapping business. If the various governments would enforce their laws against paying ransom to the extent that ransoms stopped being paid at all, the kidnapping business would cease to exist for lack of incentive. Everyone who pays a ransom to get their loved one back is culpable for subsequent kidnappings of other people’s loved ones.

Paying ransom is a classic case of beggar thy neighbor--that is, a policy that benefits the person engaging in it, but which only can do so at the expense of other similarly-situated people. It is a classic example of taking care of number one and to hell with everyone else.

The U.S. and allied soldiers who refrain from shooting where civilian human shields are benefiting themselves by enabling themselves to claim they are great humanitarians who held their fire. But they do that at the expense of the rest of the American and allied military who will be in continued danger from the bad guys in question. Indeed, the bullet that kills the humanitarian soldier who held his fire, or his best friend, may be fired by the bad guy he let escape with his decision not to shoot where he knew or suspected bad guys were--because of the presence of civilians.

Similarly, refraining from shooting at an enemy soldier because he uses innocent (or maybe not) civilians as shields rewards and thereby encourages the use of human shields. It is immoral to encourage the use of innocent civilians as shields. Furthermore, refusing to refrain from shooting at those who use civilians as shields will immediately end the practice which will lead to fewer civilian and military casualties on all sides and an earlier victory in the war. Paradoxical thought it may seem, ignoring the possibility of civilian casualties by shooting at the enemy regardless of the presence of civilians will save civilian lives in the long run.

because the fighters would immediately stop using that tactic as soon as the Americans started killing the fighters by shooting them through the human shields

...

refraining from shooting at an enemy soldier because he uses innocent (or maybe not) civilians as shields rewards and thereby encourages the use of human shields

The absolute key question here is to what extent the applied effects change behavior. It is good that you have found an example where shooting particular hostages (those directly attached to an enemy fighter as a shield) provides game theoretic incentives to change behavior and get to a better outcome. Certainly, there are other situations where shooting hostages randomly is not likely to have a similar effect. So, the question we have to answer is what methods actually affect the game theory such that they are likely to affect change and accomplish our goals. I comment on that here.

It mildly bugs me that game theory 101 isn't a common senior year topic.

Far too many arguments miss the game-theoretical aspects of decisions which nominally have a particular effect in the short term, but which have a very different effect once other actors shift their strategies in response.

"I was just following orders"

The former Commisar a few weeks after the election.

...but didn't General de Gaulle say that all of France was part of the Resistance?

Is the hostage supposed to be pointing a gun at you in this analogy? People can be compelled into causing harm, but that doesn't negate the fact that they are, as a matter of fact, causing harm. Stopping them can be justified on those grounds alone.

Or are you going to argue that the scientists were just following orders?

The hostage doesn't have a gun, but by not resisting, the hostage is enabling a criminal with a gun to get away.

By not resisting, the scientists are (checks notes) noticing that scientific studies done in a Hispanic country might help more Hispanics want to become scientists.

The hostage still isn't coming off as the better of the two here.

Are these scientists the front-line Wehrmacht, or just civilians throwing a quick heil before going about their business? The German public needn't be prosecuted, just shown that the Nazis aren't in charge anymore.

They aren't being prosecuted; they are simply being told that their jobs manufacturing Hugo Boss uniforms and swastika flags for the government are done, and that they will have to find some other form of employment in the private sector. That seems like a reasonable consequence and a proportional punishment.

You can certainly argue about the severity of their actions (including arguing that it's so trivial no punishment is warranted), but they did take those actions and do bear moral responsibility for them.

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