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PaperclipPerfector  2mo ago (text post)   36568 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 20, 2025

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its only genuine patriots

Who would that be? Neo-Nazis aren’t patriots. At best, they’re lukewarm about the modern German state. It owes them no special deference.

I say this despite agreeing that Germany’s laws on the subject ought to be more like America’s.

Without even attempting to read @Belisarius' essays, because nobody's got time for that, here's my take:

The German state and its institutions hates and makes war upon the German nation, people, culture and language. You can love the state and hate Germany, or you can love Germany and hate the state, but not both. Maybe either can be patriotic, but you can probably guess where I stand on it. The German state so not only owes any patriots no deference, but rightfully considers them its enemies.

Now, are Neo-Nazis patriots? Probably more so than the compliant normie.

Some Hapsburgs once told me that Germany is basically still occupied and they renounced their claims to get more independence for Austria. Not doubting their story even if it's obviously self-serving.

Occupied by whom? I mean, I hear stories along those lines often enough, but so far they seem firmly in the tin-hat territory.

That Germany has been culture-formed into a suicidal self-hatred, that I will buy, but actively occupied and controlled by specific foreign powers?

The crux of the claim was that the German government exists to enforce the conditions of the allied occupation after the fact, I believe.

Bear in mind that this was related to me by reactionary Austrians.

Well fair enough, it did that job and hasn't really stopped doing it either, I suppose.

I am not surprised at all that you would go there but I was talking far more about AFD and the anti national ideology. I even was explicit about the failure of German establishment to oppose only extreme nationalism. And in response you act if Germany only keeps down neonazis and you define Germany as a post national state. So you are doing what the German establishment in doing. Which is to create a cloud about 80 years old obsessions of nazism against modern nations.

One can't be an enemy of patriotism for opposing a regime that is hostile to his nation.

Nationalism to a sizable pooint is good and in its absence foreigners and people whose behavior fits under the definition of treason end up mistreating an ethnic group, take over its resources and positions, and end up imposing upon it until they become a hated minority or go extinct.

Too extreme nationalism and you become the group oppressing all your neighbors. Not enough nationalism and you end up with a failed anti national state that oppresses your group and always aligns with foreign extreme nationalists while it brings forth your nation's subjugation and destruction. However in reality this idea of extreme nationalist threat from european countries is wildly overblown in use by those who have an agenda against these nations.

There is a relatively correct amount of nationalism and we can in fact have politics dominated by moderate nationalists who lead things to a better end than the alternative.

If patriotism meant loyalty to the state as it currently exists, that would mean all Eastern anti-commie dissidents were traitors.

Um, yeah. You wouldn’t exactly expect Stalin to reward them.

It’s reasonable to wish the Germans were more merciful to their dissidents. But there is no reason to call neo-Nazis patriots, because the state they belong to explicitly opposes the one they’re patriotic about.

because the state they belong to explicitly opposes the one they’re patriotic about.

I wish we picked a more sympathetic example than neo-Nazis, because it makes the argument somewhat harder, but it's exactly this logic I'm disputing. This might not compute under a "$nation is just an idea" or "citizenship is just aa passport" framework, but historically the idea you'd want to abolish the state you're under in the name of patriotism, is not really that strange.

I think the phrase

German authoritarian far left hate speech police that persecutes its only genuine patriots

is equivocating between “strong believers in a nation-state” and “strong believers in our nation-state.” The motte is that Nazis obviously fit the former definition. The bailey is that the German left ought to treat Nazis as if they fit the latter. This is ridiculous.

For a less charged comparison: the Confederacy. Confederate soldiers and generals were obviously patriots; respecting them as such is fine, but not obligatory. Honoring them as if they’re our patriots? I object.

German left

The german left is literally anti-nationalistic, they would rather import the whole world into germany and delete it as a thing from this planet. So yeah, I'm guessing the neo-nazies in germany are actually more nationalistic than the government, the left and the greens.

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