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I replied downthread the proposed solution and went into detail. I genuinely am asking if you have read it? The one about statistics and me collecting a data pool? I feel like it has answers already to these questions on it, and no! It's not going ban crazy, and it's not using up all your energy to proof-read.
Otherwise, concretely, I want you guys to be able to identify the debate fallacies going on and tell the users who are utilizing them to knock it off so that legitimate debate can be had and you're not driving off the leftists that you want. In your first example with 07mk, is a great one; no, I think he did not respond to what I said. I first posited a) their claim about leftists' attitude on child rape couldn't be substantiated with just anecdotal evidence and b) did they have any evidence other than anecdotal. Neither of those points were addressed in their response. To me, appropriate mod action would be something along the lines of "07mk, you cannot expect justawoman to continue the conversation if you don't continue it appropriately. Please respond to her two claims a) Do you think such a claim can be substantive on anecdotal evidence and b) do you have evidence other than anecdotal, then move on to the next claim." I said in my response earlier I would be happy to document these things privately so that I had data to back my claims and also to point out these general trends and condense them into a sentence or two so that the small mod team here has concrete examples to look out for.
I read it. You are welcome to collect data and send us your conclusions, but I'll be honest: what I see is a proposal for you to send your subjective opinion about our moderation. Everyone's welcome to do that, but while we might agree here and there (for example, both @netstack and I agree that the post about prep was borderline and could have been modded), we're not going to agree with all your examples.
Case in point: I think @07mk responded to what you said. You think he didn't. I am not saying his response was good or persuasive (I agree that anecdotal evidence about one's own personal experiences does not qualify one to speak for all leftists), but when you say:
You're literally demanding we play referee in every argument. If someone asks a question, and the poster they are arguing with does not answer the question (or doesn't answer it completely, or not directly), you want the mods to step in and say "You may not continue this conversation until you answer @justawoman's question"? No. Hell no. Not doing that. We have enough work to do just telling people to stop the cheap insults and weakmanning and trolling, we're not going to adjudicate every interpersonal spat every time someone summons us and demands "Make him answer my question!"
You're already playing defense and saying you can't longhouse the users because you don't have the time. The next step is them offering to "help" you with that job, and you'll have to make an awkward excuse why you don't want help with the thing you just said you don't have time to do.
All their little tricks are so clever.
No, I'm saying we won't longhouse the users because we don't want to.
No, they make proposals and we consider and either accept or reject them (mostly reject).
Just like you make proposals, and we consider and either accept or reject them.
Are you suggesting @justawoman is part of some entryist conspiracy to take over the Motte, and not just a leftie with some opinions? Why is the difference between someone playing "little tricks" and someone (you, for example) advocating for your preferred norms?
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SteveKirk, why do you keep making unnecessary little zingers like "all their little tricks are so clever"? I could also do a little zinger along the lines of, "watch out, they're trying to make you gargle sand again", but that is escalation and devolves the conversation and this isn't the place for that. I don't understand what you want out of the forum if, seemingly, all you want to do is make little barbs at leftists that piss them off and goad them into stinging you and derail the conversation.
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Yes, it is my subjective opinion on moderation. I am trying to prove said subjective opinion in the most objective way I can think of. I write the report, I send it to my boss, and I've done my job. What you and the mods do with said report is not in my metaphorical pay grade to be concerned about. I'll gather my data and write some paragraphs trying to summarize it and if ya'll think it's bogus, uh. Idk, you're asking me for proof, I'm gonna whip up the proof, and if it just comes down to plain "I think this, you think that", like, that's fine. It just means the moderation on this site isn't for me.
And no, oh my Lord, I do not expect you guys to add all that extra work. I feel like I am saying these things and they're not being heard. I literally acknowledged and will do so again that ya'll are a small mod team and cannot afford extra work, so if I am going to propose a solution, it needs to be concise, factor in labor effort, and be achievable with the small team ya'll have. With your example, yes, I would like for the mods to say something like that, but no, it's not feasible to do with every single disagreement, so it should only be used when it's really necessary so as not to eat up mods' time, so there needs to be some kind of colloquially agreed upon terminology that is easily identifiable.
You think @07mk responded to what I said. I think he didn't, and also that a lot of other people just generally don't on this site in general. I would like to gather my evidence to convince you he-and-they didn't. Then after that if you still think he responded to what I said, that's totally fair. Sometimes it just does come down to "I don't agree". But at least I did my part in trying to put my money where my mouth is.
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You are both mischaracterizing my comments, which is something I find ironic given the topic of discussion. I didn't ever claim or even imply that I spoke for all leftists, nor did I make any sort of argument that my anecdotal evidence was some sort of proof that the question should be answered with "No." Perhaps I'm guilty of breaking the rules against writing clearly, though I'm not sure where in what I wrote contained the argument "[my anecdotal evidence] ergo [leftists don't care about child rape]." My anecdote wasn't even meant as evidence, just context for why, as a leftist, I personally find that question entirely reasonable and also believe that answering the question with "No" is entirely reasonable.
I'm not suggesting you broke any rules. I'm just saying I can understand why @justawoman might have found your response unsatisfactory. And this is exactly why I am saying we aren't going to wade into adjudicating "how good" someone's response is.
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