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PaperclipPerfector  26d ago (text post)   26189 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 23, 2024

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The obviously false trilemma.

Lewis is good, but, left out the obvious 4th choice: decades after Jesus's death early Christians exaggerated his works and words to the point of making them miracles and Jesus God on Earth. Those first few decades are spotty in terms of written accounts. These were oral recitations that eventually were written down after a few decades. This view predates Lewis by centuries and there's no way he honestly isn't aware of it. Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson belived some variation of that. This false trilemma isn't Lewis' greatest moment of intellectual integrity.

Seems really odd all of his disciples decided to be killed in a variety of gruesome ways because of some miracles that they never actually witnessed

From "Mormonism: The Control Group For Christianity?" by Scott Alexander:

One common apologetics tactic is the argument from the historicity of Christ and the Apostles. That is, the Apostles said they saw the Resurrection of Christ, and it would take quite a conspiracy to make twelve different people lie - not to mention to make them stick to the lie even after Christianity became unpopular and it became clear they would be persecuted or even die for their faith. If the Apostles had been making the story of the Resurrection up, there were ample opportunities for them to say so. Yet either they never did, or it never made it into the tradition.

...

One way to knock down this argument is to find a case of twelve people who said they saw something miraculous, didn't recant despite persecution and strong self-interested reasons to do so - and yet everyone, atheist and orthodox Christian alike, agree they were wrong. Ever since I left Utah I've been slowly making my way through The Mormon People, and I was very excited to find a case of exactly that.

If you're not familiar with Mormonism, it was founded in the 1820s by an American prophet named Joseph Smith, who claimed that an angel led him to a series of golden tablets written in hieroglyphics which, when translated by means of a magic stone, contained various revelations. He attracted various followers despite persecution and today there are over ten million Mormons who believe the insights he took from these tablets and various other angelic encounters form a new testament of the Bible called The Book of Mormon.

During Smith's lifetime, there was obviously a lot of curiosity over whether his story about angels and golden tablets and hieroglyphics was true. This was compounded by his insistence that he had given the golden tablets back to the angel when he was done translating them and so couldn't produce the originals for scholarly review anymore.

However, Smith was able to produce eleven witnesses (besides himself, for a total of twelve) for his story. Three witnesses claimed to have seen the angel holding the plates and heard the Voice of God tell them Smith's story was true... Eight others saw the plates later, and although they did not encounter God or any angels, they confirmed that there were a set of mysterious golden tablets with hieroglyphics on them... All eleven signed official legal statements swearing their testimony, which were later incorporated into printed editions of the Book of Mormon.

What are we to make of this?

One obvious possibility is that Smith made some fake tablets and showed them off to few enough people for a brief enough time that the fake couldn't be investigated closely. I don't like this explanation for two reasons. The first is that it would be really hard for a dirt-poor farmer to construct a book seemingly constructed of gold tablets inscribed with hieroglyphics. He would need the cooperation of a couple of professionals, and he would have to rely on them keeping quiet. Even moving the tablets - they were said to have weighed several hundred pounds - would have been a production. No goldsmith or wealthy backer has ever come forward claiming a part in it, nor have any likely candidates been proposed. And second of all, this is less parsimonious than most alternative hypotheses. It would require Smith to be pushing two totally different plots at the same time - whatever plot got the first group to testify to angels and divine voices, and the plot to fake a golden book for the second group.

A second possibility is that Smith found a bunch of people who were willing to lie for him. But this suffers from the same problem that the "the Apostles lied" theory does. Several of the witnesses later had very public fallings-out with Joseph Smith and the incipient Mormon Church. Oliver Cowdery, one of the three who saw the angel, got into a fight with Joseph Smith over polygamy and some money matters and got excommunicated from Mormonism. He ended up moving to Ohio, becoming a Methodist, and declaring that he was "ashamed of his connection with Mormonism". However, he always stuck to his story about seeing the angel and the Golden Plates, even when, according to Wikipedia, "that confession cost him the editorship of a newspaper".

David Whitmer, another of the three witnesses to the angel, also got in a spat with Joseph Smith and was part of a coup attempt in the Mormon church to expel Joseph Smith as leader and replace him with himself. Smith excommunicated him and then sent a militia to harass him and his family; eventually he was forced to leave the state. Although he denounced Smith for the rest of his life, he continued to swear that he had seen the angel and the golden plates.

Further, the Mormons were getting persecuted ad nauseum by this point. On three different occasions, Mormon towns were burnt, the Mormons lost their land, and a bunch of Mormons were killed or jailed. Joseph Smith himself was killed by an angry mob. Eventually the Mormons got so sick and afraid that they all packed up and fled to Utah, which as anyone who's seen Utah knows requires a special level of desperation.

This presents a serious problem for the Christian apologists, at least if they're not Mormon. Their argument is that there's no way twelve people would simultaneously hallucinate a mystical experience, and although twelve people might agree to lie about the mystical experience there's no way they would all keep that lie throughout decades of church politics and terrible persecution. But now they're faced with a dilemma. Either they have to throw out the argument that a dozen people testifying to something and holding to it means it definitely happened, or they all have to convert to Mormonism.

So what did happen with all those witnesses to Mormonism? Well, there are a few helpful hints. All of them were strongly predisposed in Smith's favor to begin with. Some were his family members. All had a background in the sort of folk mysticism that was common in America at the time.

(notice none of this differentiates it from the Jesus case; those who saw the resurrected Jesus were his disciples, some were members of his family such as his brother James, and they were all steeped in the folk mysticism that was common in Palestine at the time. But I digress)

A number of the Mormon witnesses sort of change their stories in weird ways. One, Martin Harris, supposedly admitted later he saw the plate not with his earthly eyes but with his "eyes of faith", and a neighbor said he "never claimed to have seen the plates with his natural eyes, only spiritual vision". Then Harris totally denied ever saying this and said they were definitely literally real in every possible way. Another witness is supposedly on the record as saying the angel had "no form or shape" and was more of a "vague impression", although again he's also on the much more official record as totally denying this and saying it was all definitely really real. Apparently in contradiction to these, there is a record of one witness insisting he hefted the (quite heavy) plates and held them on his knees and felt the weight and so on.

The Jesus story also has some weird incongruities. In many cases, the disciples originally thought they were talking to someone else (a gardener, a traveler on the road), and later "realize" it is Jesus. Jesus tells Mary not to touch him, suggesting some kind of belief he might be a vision or apparition, but then Thomas very specifically does touch him, suggesting an attempt to dispel this belief. Although the Christ story admittedly does not have the sort of guarded-then-retracted attempts by the witnesses to say maybe it was really spiritual after all, we also have only about a thousandth as much material in the Jesus case as in the Joseph Smith case, and we totally lack any independent testimony from the Apostles involved let alone any evidence that they were ever questioned harshly by skeptics or had things they mentioned to their neighbors come back to haunt them.

Overall I think the Mormon experience proves (if you're not Mormon!) that the sort of psychological forces surrounding mystical experiences can be more complicated than we naively expect. We wouldn't expect twelve witnesses to swear up and down that they saw angels and magical golden plates and so on, and then stick to the story despite a host of opportunities to profit by denying it - and yet if we are to continue denying Mormonism we must admit exactly that. And coming to that conclusion should make us update our probabilities in the case of the Apostles as well.

Interesting, I never knew of this blog post of Scott’s but I’m not sure I find Mormonism all that close of an analogous case. The persecution of early Mormon’s was gentle by comparison to what early Christian’s went through. How many of those witnesses were crucified? Fed to lions? Oh a few villages got burned and then they decided to all run away and give up on preaching? Hmmmmmm

What a writer he was.

I don't think decades works. Paul's one of the major authors, and he was a Christian within a few years of Jesus' death. How do you think Paul would have come to believe Jesus was God?

I don’t find this persuasive. This argument is that there was in fact a different unknowable Jesus. Perhaps. But Lewis is talking about the Jesus of the Bible. He is right with respect to that person (regardless of whether that person was real).

Which is Jesus is a liar restated (the lies would be in the exaggerations of his followers putting his claims of being the Son of God into his mouth after the fact).

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