site banner
PaperclipPerfector  16d ago (text post)   30773 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 2, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

4
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Sanderson? Sanderson is the most banal, extruded fantasy product workmanlike writer to come out of the RPG/fanfiction sphere, and his main virtue is base-level competence and being extremely prolific. Problem is his extreme prolificness doesn't even produce interesting books (like Stephen King did in his coke fiend days), just more and more and more of the same. Fictionalized RPG worlds complete with entire extra continents and secret prestige classes and bonus spell lists and artifacts and new monster manuals, but the stories are all basically Protagonist Figures Out Cheat Codes.

I have no problem with people who think Sanderson is more enjoyable than Martin (I have read more Sanderson than Martin), but whatever you think of Martin and his morality, his writing is far better than Sanderson's.

Like any famous author, Sanderson has leaned a bit too far into the aspect of his work he’s famous for - all the magic systems stuff - and he tries slightly too hard to be topical. But his early work is fantastic, especially the first Mistborn series, and his later work is often good too.

Beyond all that, though, he was special to me as a modern fantasy author who didn’t seem corrupted by the nihilism of our age. He wrote about princes genuinely trying to be good leaders, priests in a corrupt priesthood losing and regaining their faith, how to trust in your friends when you have no guarantee that they won’t let you down.

I don't care what others think, I like Kaladin and I will fight you to the death in defence of his wholesome bridgemen.

But I will agree in part that Sanderson does not know how to write a convincing heterosexual relationship. I suppose it would be too much to ask a Mormon to write erotica. But then again, Meyers of Twilight fame can do it, why can't he?

I liked Kaladin in the first book, but Words of Radiance was so boring I decided there was no way I was reading eight more books of this (I think the Stormlight Archives is meant to be 10 books, which knowing Sanderson means it will actually be three 10-book series). That is pretty much my experience with Sanderson; first book or two in a series is good, after that it becomes crap. (Mistborn is an exception, though the third book was very flawed, and the second trilogy did not hold my interest at all.)

I liked Kaladin in the first book

I thought, initially, that I was reading about a depressed man. It turns out that Kaladin is actually a man "suffering from depression", which is quite a different thing.

I'm not sure if I'll read book five. It's just too tiring for me.

Agreed, and that makes sense if his main talent is creating an interesting world/magic system. Once that's been outlined and a few adventures have occurred, there's not a lot of meat left.

I did like his early novel(la?) about the protagonist with multiple personalities.

I don't agree that Martin's writing is far better than Sanderson's. They are on the same level imo. I honestly have no idea how you can say he doesn't produce interesting books, when almost all of his books (except Elantris, which was a snooze) absolutely gripped me. The fact that he's prolific is just icing on the cake. Extremely well written books which also come out once a year? Yes, please!

They are interesting in the way a comic book is interesting. Martin's prose is far better, and Sanderson just has no depth. But I realize that some people don't care about that at all (hence the enormous popularity of fanfiction and litrpgs), and I admit I am pretty judgmental about writing quality. That's why I made the distinction between good and enjoyable; I have read a lot of his books, after all (and enjoyed most of them).

I find this such an alien viewpoint; once writing has reached a (fairly low) bar, I find it to not really matter towards my enjoyment of a book.

The part of the book I have always felt matters is what it says, not how it says it. Caring about the quality of the writing seems like receiving a gift, and discarding it because the wrapping paper was poorly chosen.

I found ASOIAF to be utterly predictable, save for the character deaths (which I suppose is a twist, in its own right). Someone like Feist, Sanderson, or Cook may have flaws in how they write, but the stories themselves are way more interesting to me.

Some people care about wordsmithing and sentence crafting, some people only care about story. There are definitely people who don't understand why anyone would care about the other thing, just as there are people who don't understand why anyone would read fiction.

My theory is that it depends on reading speed. Slower readers (me in foreign languages) care more about sentence crafting because they spend more time with each sentence, whereas in English I am naturally a very fast reader and ‘reading’ a page is a bit like looking through a transparent pane glass.

@Amadan, how much time would you spend on one of Martin’s books, if you don’t mind my asking?

I am a somewhat slower reader usually, but I'm not sure that's the reason. Though I suppose speed reading would make it harder to appreciate individual sentences.

I’m not talking about his plotting. His stories are honestly fairly predictable from my point of view. But he does create worlds that don’t feel like they’re transposed versions of medieval Europe. Martin doesn’t do that part well at all. The Religion of the Seven is a reskin of Christianity more or less. The plot is pretty much War of the Roses. It’s just like if you’re creating a fantasy world, I think you should put a little effort into making the world something other than our world.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats