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PaperclipPerfector  3d ago (text post)   16689 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 18, 2024

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The biggest problem with the medical exceptions is that there is no confidence among the medical community that any medical abortion won't be investigated and prosecuted.

That seems like a "them" problem, unless there's some actual evidence of such prosecutions.

Ken Paxton has already demonstrated that he's willing to challenge a TRO and threaten hospitals with prosecution and other penalties if he doesn't think a particular abortion is covered by the exception.

The only case of this sort I know of was the Kate Cox case, where Cox's lawyers claimed the ordinary hazards of pregnancy constituted a medical emergency. Obviously Paxton could not acquiesce to that, as it would eviscerate the law.

That seems like a "them" problem, unless there's some actual evidence of such prosecutions.

If you're in Texas and are a woman or have a wife, sister, or daughter, it sounds like a "you" problem.

  • -12

That’s a chilling effect for you.

Compare gattsuru’s posts on ATF ambiguity. They don’t have to shoot every dog to remind people that dog-shooting is, in fact, on the table.

Wasn’t the Kate Cox case about infertility? It used the “substantial impairment” part of the exception rather than “danger of death.” If her doctors and judge agreed on medical necessity, the law remained intact.

That’s a chilling effect for you.

No, it's a cynical invention of one. ATF has in fact shot dogs and stomped kittens. Texas has (so far as I know) not prosecuted any doctor for an abortion when the doctor said the abortion was for a medical emergency, nor have they threatened to do so.

The Supreme Court of Texas order in the Kate Cox case is here.

Only a doctor can exercise “reasonable medical judgment”1 to decide whether a pregnant woman “has a life-threatening physical condition,” making an abortion necessary to save her life or to save her from “a serious risk of substantial impairment of a major bodily function.” If a doctor, using her “reasonable medical judgment,” decides that a pregnant woman has such a condition, then the exception applies, and Texas law does not prohibit the abortion.

In this case, the pleadings state that Ms. Cox’s doctor—Dr. Damla Karsan—believes Ms. Cox qualifies for an abortion based on the medical-necessity exception. But when she sued seeking a court’s pre-authorization, Dr. Karsan did not assert that Ms. Cox has a “life-threatening physical condition” or that, in Dr. Karsan’s reasonable medical judgment, an abortion is necessary because Ms. Cox has the type of condition the exception requires.

Her doctor would not, when push came to shove, even assert in the court filings that Cox's abortion met the qualifications for the medical necessity exception.

A doctor says an abortion is medically necessary.

"Well, we have to have judges second-guessing those decisions, otherwise doctors would abuse the system."

A doctor won't say an abortion is medically necessary.

"Gotta defer to doctors and their medical expertise!"

  • -16

The court specifically says that the doctor did not claim that the exception applies?

That doesn’t seem like a fair interpretation of what transpired.

Is that true? From the judge’s order

Dr. Karsan…believes in good faith, exercising her best medical judgment, that a D&E abortion is medically recommended for Ms. Cox and that the medical exception to Texas’ abortion bans and laws permits an abortion in Ms. Cox’s circumstances.

This is quoting from the complaint. The Supreme Court insists that “believing the medical exception applies” isn’t good enough. It has to actually apply, and the only way to find that out is to risk going to court.

The chilling effect isn’t invented. Karsan’s employer wouldn’t let her do the procedure without a court order. She secured the order. Then Paxton unsecured it. Also, he tweeted a letter to said employer, reminding them that they were very definitely not safe from prosecution. What was she supposed to conclude?

Is that true?

I gave you the link to the Supreme Court's decision.

Supreme Court insists that “believing the medical exception applies” isn’t good enough. It has to actually apply, and the only way to find that out is to risk going to court.

No, the Supreme Court insists that the doctor make a reasonable medical judgement that the medical exception applies. The doctor did not claim this; she claimed only a good faith belief that the exception applied. The original pleading goes into great detail why the plaintiff doesn't think requiring a "reasonable medical judgement" is a good standard, but the Supreme Court did not agree. The doctor could, of course, have -- without risk to herself -- asserted a "reasonable medical judgement" in the pleading.

Do you seriously believe that the court would have ruled differently if the doctor had simply used different language in the motion? That all this case boils down to is semantics?

If the doctor had claimed that in her reasonable medical judgement, Cox was covered by the medical exception, most likely the issue of whether such judgement was reasonable would have been litigated. But you yourself MadMonzer gives the real reason for Cox's wanting an abortion here; it was the non-viability of the fetus, not the threat to the mother.

That wasn't me.

Oops, sorry.

Yes, we're reading the same decision.

But how is "believes in good faith, exercising her best medical judgment...that the medical exception to Texas’ abortion bans and laws permits an abortion in Ms. Cox’s circumstances" not asserting a "reasonable medical judgment"?

Though the statute affords physicians discretion, it requires more than a doctor’s mere subjective belief. By requiring the doctor to exercise “reasonable medical judgment,” the Legislature determined that the medical judgment involved must meet an objective standard.
...the statute requires that judgment be a “reasonable medical” judgment, and Dr. Karsan has not asserted that her “good faith belief” about Ms. Cox’s condition meets that standard.

So the state accepts that Karsan asserted her judgement in good faith, but insists that it wasn't a "reasonable medical" judgment, because it didn't meet their standard. What standard? An "objective" one. Okay, but what standard? What magic words would she have to say to clear the bar?

Dr. Karsan did not assert that Ms. Cox has a “life-threatening physical condition” or that, in Dr. Karsan’s reasonable medical judgment, an abortion is necessary because Ms. Cox has the type of condition the exception requires.

Checking the complaint, then, what's this?

(138) Dr. Karsan has met Ms. Cox, reviewed her medical records, and believes in good faith, exercising her best medical judgment, that a D&E abortion is medically recommended for Ms. Cox.

Oh, that "good faith" only extends to a recommendation. She chickened out and wouldn't commit to--

(139) It is also Dr. Karsan’s good faith belief and medical recommendation that that the Emergent Medical Condition Exception to Texas’s abortion bans and laws permits an abortion in Ms. Cox’s circumstances, as Ms. Cox has a life-threatening physical condition aggravated by, caused by, or arising from her current pregnancy that places her at risk of death or poses a serious risk of substantial impairment of her reproductive functions if a D&E abortion is not performed.

So Karsan literally used all the magic words from the statute except "reasonable." This gives the state Supreme Court license to ignore her recommendation, revoke her legal protection, and send her employer a threatening letter about how she's still risking their accreditation. All while insisting that "Only a doctor can exercise 'reasonable medical judgment'."

But how is "believes in good faith, exercising her best medical judgment...that the medical exception to Texas’ abortion bans and laws permits an abortion in Ms. Cox’s circumstances" not asserting a "reasonable medical judgment"?

Because those "good faith" and "reasonableness" are two different standards in law, and the plaintiffs were trying to get the courts to accept a "good faith" standard when the statute required a "reasonableness" one.

So Karsan literally used all the magic words from the statute except "reasonable." This gives the state Supreme Court license to ignore her recommendation, revoke her legal protection, and send her employer a threatening letter about how she's still risking their accreditation. All while insisting that "Only a doctor can exercise 'reasonable medical judgment'."

Her legal protection was not revoked; she just didn't have it because she refused to commit to a "reasonable medical judgement". And yes, that means all three words.

No, it doesn’t. In the first footnote of their response, the Supreme Court defines “reasonable medical judgment.”

a medical judgment made by a reasonably prudent physician, knowledgeable about a case and the treatment possibilities for the medical condition involved.

Which of these did Dr. Karsan not attest? More importantly, why doesn’t the Supreme Court specify?

Even if you don’t think the abortion was necessary—isn’t this perverse? The state is shooting down every attempt to clarify its laws before committing a potentially criminal act.

She did not attest to a medical judgement made by a reasonably prudent physician, only to a "good faith belief". This isn't mere words, they're different legal standards, and the pleading goes into this.

Even if you don’t think the abortion was necessary—isn’t this perverse? The state is shooting down every attempt to clarify its laws before committing a potentially criminal act.

It shot down an attempt to lower the standard of judgement that was required by statute. This seems legally correct.

I agree with @MadMonzer that even if Texas prohibits abortion, they should have an exception for non-viability of the fetus. But they don't, and trying to add one by allowing physicians to lie without consequence about the danger to the mother (which is no doubt how Paxton views this) isn't legally sound.

No, the Supreme Court insists that the doctor make a reasonable medical judgement that the medical exception applies. The doctor did not claim this; she claimed only a good faith belief that the exception applied. The original pleading goes into great detail why the plaintiff doesn't think requiring a "reasonable medical judgement" is a good standard, but the Supreme Court did not agree. The doctor could, of course, have -- without risk to herself -- asserted a "reasonable medical judgement" in the pleading.

Word games.

Yes, it's law.

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