site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 21, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Would you mind giving me confidence levels on your predictions of:

  1. Trump won't be declared the winner;
  2. If Trump is declared the winner, he'll not take office;
  3. If Harris takes office, Elon Musk will be arrested in the next year?

Prediction market links:

  • Trump disqualified after being elected (5%)
  • Elon arrested, some very schizo results on this one. Apparently half his expected probability of arrest is between 2026 and 2030? This market looks to be trading on a "well it has to happen SOME time" theory. Honestly, I think these are bizarrely high - it kind of makes me want to open an account.

First one seems pretty unlikely*; what's the lizardman's constant for Manifold?

The second one... well, the obvious motivation for somebody (not necessarily the USA) to arrest him would be "to get enough leverage on him to get him to sell/give Twitter to someone more pliable" (this being akin to rubber-hose cryptanalysis or the Pierre-sur-Haute fiasco, and lawfare without custody being insufficient to the task due to his fuck-you money), although that would be such a huge heel move that I couldn't even begin to guess at the repercussions.

*The problem is that to resolve positive, the SCOTUS has to rule him disqualified, and that means they have to pack the court in less than three months (because this SCOTUS won't do that unless he commits obvious treason, which he has no reason to do as President-elect, and if Trump takes office the court can't be packed against him).

For Twitter? Not his immensely valuable, industry leading industrial and tech companies? The one that isn't making any money, that's hemorrhaging users, that runs off advertising that's in steep decline?

  1. Elon Musk doesn't actually own a majority stake in Tesla.
  2. My understanding is that Tesla and SpaceX owe a significant chunk of their value to Elon Musk's leadership, which means one can't just steal them out from under him without causing much of that value to disintegrate.
  3. As @Corvos noted, at the governmental scale money is less relevant than power, and there's power in Twitter (which is, of course, why Musk bought it in the first place). There is particularly power in Twitter to make or break a full set of the big platforms for censorship purposes - in other words, if one supports or opposes SJ (though in the latter case, one presumably would be cheering Musk; as Zvi put it, "Musk spent $44 billion dollars so the rest of us didn’t have to. That’s pretty sweet").

The one that isn't making any money, that's hemorrhaging users, that runs off advertising that's in steep decline?

And this is different that the situation all legacy media finds itself in... how, exactly?

Twitter is the Voice of America. Owning it is a big deal, because "allowed to run C&C servers for your human botnets" is what the First Amendment is designed to let you do, just like how the Second is there to make sure you always have the ability to kill your fellow citizens, the Fourth is so that your fellow citizens' ability to discover and prosecute crimes against them is severely curtailed, the Fifth is so that even if they don't find shit they can't torture you into confessing, etc.

Elon Musk has the Voice of America, a fleet of privately-owned ICBMs (and the only company with the ability to produce them these days), and the infrastructure for a parallel worldwide communications network with extremely limited 'lawful intercept' [read: end-run around 4A] capability that is relatively easy for individuals to access yet very hard for any state actor to destroy.

The Constitution, and the human rights it enumerates, are really fucking extreme when you think about them for more than 5 seconds. It is good to possess those rights.

Elon Musk has the Voice of America, a fleet of privately-owned ICBMs (and the only company with the ability to produce them these days), and the infrastructure for a parallel worldwide communications network with extremely limited 'lawful intercept' [read: end-run around 4A] capability that is relatively easy for individuals to access yet very hard for any state actor to destroy.

And yet at any time, ten police officers can walk into the SpaceX headquarters, have him arrested with evidence the CIA can fake, and that’s that. And there’s nothing Musk could do about it. So where does the real power lie?

Look at how much of a change to the tone of politics buying Twitter had compared to starting Truth Social. Controlling the moderation strategy of the world’s most important social media company is (for short term politics at least) vastly more important than rockets or electric cars. Actual monetary profit is irrelevant.