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(Reposting in the latest Wellness Wednesday following a suggestion)
I am seeking advice on how to fix a chronic, persistent, extreme lack of discipline.
I am currently 25, live with my mother, I have failed out of college (again) and I currently work part time at a grocery store for minimum wage within walking distance (I still don't have my driver's license). The reason I failed out of college both times was that I just didn't show up to class. When I did show up, I passed the exams with no real problem and I managed to pass a few classes with that. I have yet to tell my mother I failed the second time. I went to a 4 year college, failed out of that, then went to a 2 year community college. The only reason I managed to get a degree was that it was during COVID years, so the standards were super lax. I'm pretty sure I missed a few final exams, didn't hand in almost any assignments and yet somehow I still passed. After passing, I went back to the 4 year school and went back to failing.
I only have the job because, after I finished the 2 year degree, I didn't sign up for classes for the 4 year college in time, so I was doing nothing for months. My mother kept telling me to get a job since I wasn't in school and was threatening to kick me out if I didn't. She gave me multiple deadlines that I blew past with no consequence, but I could tell she was getting increasingly fed up. I ended up getting a job and I'm pretty sure if I waited a month or two longer, I would've been kicked out.
After the second time I failed, I decided to go to a therapist. She told me to see a psychiatrist for ADHD. He eventually said I have ADHD, and even though I am still quite skeptical of the diagnosis (
for reasons I can go into if neededsomeone asked, so I answered here), I have been taking the Methylphenidate ER that I've been prescribed. I am only doing this because my mother has great insurance so all the therapists, doctors and medication is all paid for fully by insurance, but that will only last until I am 26 (close to a year from now). She also doesn't know I am going to a therapist, doctor or that I am taking any medicine.With regards to my job, for reasons that I still do not know, I am able to go to my job without missing a day. I am almost always a few minutes late (anywhere from 0 to 10 minutes), but given the super low standards of a minimum wage job, I never get reprimanded in any way for it. But, I still always show up, unlike my school classes. This confusion is part of what prompted me to go to therapy. I have repeatedly tried to figure out why I am late and to fix it, but nothing really worked.
So, the question is: what do I do? Here is me listing all the options I can think of
Continue going to therapy and seeing the psychiatrist. Both haven't been helpful so far (I've seen two therapists so far. the first abruptly told me she was leaving that practice. Both have been similarly effective), but maybe they just need more time. Hopefully, I will learn why I didn't go to class and fix that, then I will go back to school, finish my degree and get a job like "normal". My worry: it's been 3 months of this so far and I can't see any progress, so I am not too optimistic. Plus, I'm not sure I can hide me failing from my mother much longer and if she does find out, I'm pretty sure I will be kicked out. Maybe I need a new therapist? If it's not part of insurance, as all the good therapists seem to be, I don't think I'd be able to afford it with my minimum wage job. And, even though every therapist that doesn't take insurance says they offer it cheaper for people that find it hard to pay, I'm not sure I'd qualify since, even though I make little money, my mother makes decent money.
Give up on college, give up on therapy, the psychiatry, the adhd medication and try to find a job with the 2 year degree I have. Hope that what happened with me not going to college doesn't happen at my new job. My worry: doing this without understanding why I failed in college seems very risky. I'm also not sure I can find a good enough job to move out with just a 2 year degree.
Tell my mother. Hope she gives me another chance. But then what? What is my plan then? No idea. Plus, I am unsure I would even get another chance (or if I deserve one). I mean, would you give me one? I don't think I would.
Continue working my dead end job. Eventually, my mother will figure out I failed, maybe she'll give me another chance, maybe not, eventually I get kicked out. (doom scenario)
Am I missing any options? What should I do? How do I fix this extreme lack of discipline? How do I fix this extreme laziness? Have you, or anyone you know, fixed this extreme lack of discipline? How?
If it matters, for context I live in the New York metropolitan area. Also, "kicked out" in this context doesn't mean me being homeless. I'm not 100% sure, but it probably means me either living with my dad, or my brother. However, if I don't solve my issues, they would probably kick me out eventually as well, and after that, who knows.
I can't give you any life advice, but it might be worth thinking about leveling up your diet and fitness. It sounds like you have a lot of time to work out. Why not start a serious lifting habit?
While this doesn't really fix anything, it will eventually give you a lot more energy and self-esteem that will make it easier to tackle other problems. There's good evidence that exercise, especially weightlifting, is more effective than therapy. Ditch the therapy and meds, and apply barbell.
I don't envy your situation, but I'd kill to be 25 again and have the energy and muscle-building ability of a 25 year old.
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One mental trick that's worked for me:
Tell yourself constantly that you'll procrastinate later. Make a deal with yourself. "If I do X, then I get to do Y later". If you don't do X, then you don't get Y.
This is a mental trick that helped me a fair bit; I also had trouble going to class. It wasn't the class I minded, it was the whole process, especially if the class was far or I needed to do significant prep work before class. Eventually I sort of turned it into a whole process where I'd get up early on the day I had to go to class, get a long shower, enjoy the walk, go to campus early and have a long, leisurely meal and coffee before class actually started and then finish it. If I didn't go to class, I didn't get to go through that whole process.
Similarly, childish "no movie tonight because I didn't finish this paper first" works. I find with this kind of bargaining that I do with myself, I end up enjoying the rewards more because I worked to balance them in my mind.
Also, look at your lifestyle and see what small habits you can build up to help you cultivate a sense of ownership and responsibility. Judging from your post there's a bunch of stuff you don't feel responsible for, both in your own life and that of others, and so naturally you are letting it slack. It doesn't have to be anything massive, like the health and wellbeing of your family members, but start small, like paying the bills and utilities for the house (mostly possible on even a minimum wage salary in 2024). Those responsibilities become guiding lights if used properly - you will know, always, that if you don't pay the power bill you will have no electricity, so you will make damn sure you pay it.
I can't speak for medication and therapy, In my own experience I found therapy mostly expensive waste, but I know others who've been on medication and they've said it helped.
I've tried similar things to this, but I either do something else I want to do that isn't part of the rule, literally forget my own rule and break it by mistake, or just break my own rule intentionally (and then feel really bad about it afterwards)
This is interesting. Maybe it can explain why I manage to go to work but not go to class? When I don't go to work, it's just a few people that work per shift, so I know it would be a huge hassle for the manager to call someone in, or if no one can come in, everyone else would just have to work harder to cover for me being gone. So, I feel responsible for all the extra work I'm putting on them. However, when I miss class, especially big lectures, I am able to slip through the cracks. No one really cares one way or the other if I show up or not. This also might explain why with some classes, it takes longer for me to stop going. With those classes, I usually made acquaintances with someone in the class, or I participated in class with the professor a lot in a small, discussion type class. A lot of those classes I still end up not showing up to eventually, but some of them I managed to actually pass. I need to think about how this fits other situations in my life
I have to say though, if this is correct, the solution is scary to me because it is basically "be more intertwined and interdependent with other people" which seems opposite to my goal of independence.
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How confident are you that you have a problem with "discipline" as opposed to a problem with "energy"?
To clarify, I'd say the classic hyperactive ADHD person has a primary problem with discipline, not with energy. They can maintain a high level of activity, but it's poorly directed toward their professed goals. In contrast, somebody who's, say, chronically severely sleep deprived may incidentally have a problem with discipline, but primarily has a problem with energy -- there's not enough energy available to do what's needed to stay on top of their responsibilities, and redirecting it more strategically won't fix the problems.
Are you somebody who chronically doesn't do things you need to do, or are you somebody who just chronically doesn't do things, full stop? Where does the day go? I'd say if it tends to go to "the lowest-effort available alternative at any given moment", you may have a problem with energy, rather than discipline. This may have a variety of potential causes, including physical unwellness.
I'm having a hard time differentiating between the two. When I read
I was thinking I was the former, but then reading
has me second guessing myself and now I think it's the latter. I think "lowest-effort available alternative" is what's really confusing me. I'm guessing scrolling social media is a "lowest-effort available alternative", but is playing a video game that? Maybe it depends on the game? Maybe going back to that "comfort game" counts, but playing a new game doesn't? Does going to a movie theater or playing a tcg count? I'm guessing that one doesn't as low effort.
When I'm not working, I'm usually on the computer where I browse social media or play video games. If I'm really into a game, I will play that a lot, otherwise I'm usually on social media, mostly youtube. I am the type who gets super into things, so if I'm super into a game, I will play it a ton, research a ton about it, think about it a lot, etc. Similarly, if I find a nice youtube video or other social media post, I will go through all the creator's stuff to find more, or I will find more content on that topic. Around once a week or two, I will go out and do something. Usually it's to play a TCG, sometimes a movie, sometimes other things, and that's not including going to the therapist/psychiatrist.
So I'm thinking of "discipline" as a broader and longer term thing that's about persisting at overcoming obstacles in a structured and intentional way over time. This persistence takes, as one of its prereqs, at least the occasional availability of "energy", the immediate capacity to exert effort to overcome obstacles here and now.
It takes discipline (for many people) to keep a clean house day in and day out. It takes energy to get up right now and wash the dishes. If you rarely or never have the energy to get up and wash the dishes, you're missing one of the key parts of the discipline of keeping a clean house.
But it also takes energy to do things that aren't necessarily part of any pattern of discipline -- it takes energy to organize friends for an outing, or to ride your bike to the bodega, or to refine a tactic in a competitive videogame.
Set aside whether you're willing or able to pursue a sustained program of efforts for the sake of delayed or diffuse rewards -- the realm of discipline. In the more basic sense of energy, do you feel like you have the inclination to exert moderate immediate efforts for moderate near term rewards? Or do you consider exerting such efforts, but think "that sounds like too much work" and accept known low rewards for the sake of lowering effort?
Like being on time -- you're preparing to leave for work, and you get the moderate reward of getting there on time if you leave now instead of leaving in 10 minute. This isn't necessarily a matter of discipline and long term thinking -- this is "right now, is it too much effort to get up and leave for the sake of being less stressed out 10 minutes from now?"
Potentially it's a matter of discipline if there's a lot of earlier preparation that has to go into being ready to leave on time. But if it's just "I'm going to watch YouTube for another 10 minutes at the cost of being late", that seems like a different problem. What's it feel like to you?
Or say at your shitty min wage job you were actually paid daily for performance in some legible way, so that if you were able to do "50% more work" in your next shift than you normally do, by some measurable outcomes, you'd take home 50% more money at the end of that day. Does that opportunity sound appealing or aversive?
Okay, this is making much more sense. I definitely have the energy, but not the discipline. I will sometimes cook even when I can order food, but never consistently. I will sometimes randomly clean my room, but never consistently. I will spend hours troubleshooting a game so I can pirate it or make the mods work, and then not even play it afterwords (does anyone else do this? I know "spend hours modding skyrim and then play for 30 minutes and quit" is a thing, but I haven't heard anything similar about trying to get a pirated game to work). I also do walk to the corner store when I want a specific drink instead of just grabbing what's in my fridge and I do spend time reviewing and thinking about my play in competitive video games. So, I think I do have the energy, but not the discipline.
That's good! Developing discipline is much more tractable if you have, in principle, the energy to do the shit you need to do!
Not that it's trivial, but at least it does sound like you're asking the right question.
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Just follow your enjoyment. figure out what you love doing more than anything and explore that. Work a crappy job until you can figure out how to monetize what you love.
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Sounds like you don't have a clear goal or reason for getting a degree other than that it's vaguely something you feel expected to do.
I want a degree so that I can get a job that pays well enough to let me live by myself and be independent. I do not want to be dependent on my mother my whole life.
I don't feel like I have any meaningful way to give input on changing motivations, but this part of things seems like a good area for focus. You don't need a degree to live your life and be independent. For many goals, a degree can be instrumentally useful, but if the core goal is really just earning a respectable living, you don't need one. You need to pick a specific skill, develop it, and show up and do it in a tolerably reliable fashion. Which skill? Whatever. Learn to do auto body, wait tables, drive a forklift, put shingles on... whatever. The specifics do matter to how much money and opportunity you'll have, but the point is that you'll make a respectable living and be a respectable man if you just pick something and do it well. You don't need a bullshit political science degree to make a buck sanding bumpers down for painting.
You are right I don't need one, but the lifetime earnings premium you get from a college degree is still very high despite the recent "college is a waste of money" trend. The lifetime earnings premium from a degree is still there even if you include super expensive for profit private colleges and stereotypical no money humanities degrees. If you exclude those, the numbers favor a degree even more.
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Maybe spending some time every day thinking about your goal in a positive sense (focus on what's good about it) might help motivate you?
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