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(Reposting in the latest Wellness Wednesday following a suggestion)
I am seeking advice on how to fix a chronic, persistent, extreme lack of discipline.
I am currently 25, live with my mother, I have failed out of college (again) and I currently work part time at a grocery store for minimum wage within walking distance (I still don't have my driver's license). The reason I failed out of college both times was that I just didn't show up to class. When I did show up, I passed the exams with no real problem and I managed to pass a few classes with that. I have yet to tell my mother I failed the second time. I went to a 4 year college, failed out of that, then went to a 2 year community college. The only reason I managed to get a degree was that it was during COVID years, so the standards were super lax. I'm pretty sure I missed a few final exams, didn't hand in almost any assignments and yet somehow I still passed. After passing, I went back to the 4 year school and went back to failing.
I only have the job because, after I finished the 2 year degree, I didn't sign up for classes for the 4 year college in time, so I was doing nothing for months. My mother kept telling me to get a job since I wasn't in school and was threatening to kick me out if I didn't. She gave me multiple deadlines that I blew past with no consequence, but I could tell she was getting increasingly fed up. I ended up getting a job and I'm pretty sure if I waited a month or two longer, I would've been kicked out.
After the second time I failed, I decided to go to a therapist. She told me to see a psychiatrist for ADHD. He eventually said I have ADHD, and even though I am still quite skeptical of the diagnosis (
for reasons I can go into if neededsomeone asked, so I answered here), I have been taking the Methylphenidate ER that I've been prescribed. I am only doing this because my mother has great insurance so all the therapists, doctors and medication is all paid for fully by insurance, but that will only last until I am 26 (close to a year from now). She also doesn't know I am going to a therapist, doctor or that I am taking any medicine.With regards to my job, for reasons that I still do not know, I am able to go to my job without missing a day. I am almost always a few minutes late (anywhere from 0 to 10 minutes), but given the super low standards of a minimum wage job, I never get reprimanded in any way for it. But, I still always show up, unlike my school classes. This confusion is part of what prompted me to go to therapy. I have repeatedly tried to figure out why I am late and to fix it, but nothing really worked.
So, the question is: what do I do? Here is me listing all the options I can think of
Continue going to therapy and seeing the psychiatrist. Both haven't been helpful so far (I've seen two therapists so far. the first abruptly told me she was leaving that practice. Both have been similarly effective), but maybe they just need more time. Hopefully, I will learn why I didn't go to class and fix that, then I will go back to school, finish my degree and get a job like "normal". My worry: it's been 3 months of this so far and I can't see any progress, so I am not too optimistic. Plus, I'm not sure I can hide me failing from my mother much longer and if she does find out, I'm pretty sure I will be kicked out. Maybe I need a new therapist? If it's not part of insurance, as all the good therapists seem to be, I don't think I'd be able to afford it with my minimum wage job. And, even though every therapist that doesn't take insurance says they offer it cheaper for people that find it hard to pay, I'm not sure I'd qualify since, even though I make little money, my mother makes decent money.
Give up on college, give up on therapy, the psychiatry, the adhd medication and try to find a job with the 2 year degree I have. Hope that what happened with me not going to college doesn't happen at my new job. My worry: doing this without understanding why I failed in college seems very risky. I'm also not sure I can find a good enough job to move out with just a 2 year degree.
Tell my mother. Hope she gives me another chance. But then what? What is my plan then? No idea. Plus, I am unsure I would even get another chance (or if I deserve one). I mean, would you give me one? I don't think I would.
Continue working my dead end job. Eventually, my mother will figure out I failed, maybe she'll give me another chance, maybe not, eventually I get kicked out. (doom scenario)
Am I missing any options? What should I do? How do I fix this extreme lack of discipline? How do I fix this extreme laziness? Have you, or anyone you know, fixed this extreme lack of discipline? How?
If it matters, for context I live in the New York metropolitan area. Also, "kicked out" in this context doesn't mean me being homeless. I'm not 100% sure, but it probably means me either living with my dad, or my brother. However, if I don't solve my issues, they would probably kick me out eventually as well, and after that, who knows.
Hi, time travelling me! Long time no see, 17 years I think?
So yeah, I was in the same situation, almost exactly. Well, not the psychiatry and therapy and medication; I had self-diagnosed myself with depression instead. I lived with my mother, flunked out of college twice (through not showing up), worked a minimum wage job. I was very afraid to tell my mother when I flunked out the second time. I don't know exactly why, but I'm pretty sure it's not ADHD. I just don't learn well in a classroom environment. It bores me, to litteral sleep. I learn almost exclusively through exploration and experimentation. I can certainly concentrate for long period of times when I'm learning that way.
So I went with your option 2 (except for the therapy, psychiatry and medication). Told my mother. Obviously she was angry and worried that there would be no doors open to me without a degree. I went searching for a job with what I had (high school diploma and unfinished college degrees). It took me a week. I managed to impress a recruiter in a test enough that she recommended me for a job as helpdesk for a major law firm. I was self-taught IT tech (tech runs in the family) and my first unfinished degree was in desktop publishing, which had trained me to use Microsoft Office to a very high level of proficiency. Turns out not too many people have the skillset to support legal secretaries in their work. A year later I moved out of my mother's place. My career was built from that job and the contacts I made there, I've never been without work since then. I'm now working for a consulting firm, selling my services to clients who need a senior sysadmin.
Anyway, I can't say for sure things will work out the same for you. Maybe I was lucky to be at the right place at the right time with the right skillset. I can't even say that not having a college degree made anything more difficult, I guess I'm probably never going to be considered for a job in government or education, but outside of that, it just isn't that much of a factor in IT once you have experience. But I guess what I can say is that as long as you have marketable skills, and can find a way to bypass HR filters (networking, going through recruiters, pitching yourself directly to the people you would be working under), college is not mandatory for a succesful professional life.
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Not as extreme as you, but similar deal in terms of being present and focused on school. I got a degree - but with a crappy GPA doing as little as possible. I relied on friends to help me pass classes extensively, and had deep anxiety about how much more discipline they all had. I was surrounded by hardworking people who put up with me because they liked me, but that I was a drag on. To be totally honest, I'm now in a very good spot in terms of success and responsibility, ~10 years later.
The key for me, which may be for you, is work. There are many problems with school, but succinctly: I find the idea of paying for the privilege of suffering (waking up early, hearing someone drone on about simple concepts, and doing work that has literally zero value beyond learning) to be sickening.
Even your minimum wage job, which is as meaningless as a job can be, matters to your teammates, manager, and customers at some level.
If you're in the US, get your fucking driver's license. Cmon.
After that, find another job that is preferably higher paying and potentially interesting to you.
One more bit of tough love: Your mom isn't going to fix this. You're causing her suffering even at this point. If she gives you another chance, I think you're still in the position where you'll take advantage of her to continue to fail. You live in a time and, presumably, a 1st world country in which it is impossible for you to starve to death or truly suffer in any way. I think you have to throw yourself in the water before you'll swim.
I think in some cases, she’s somewhat a hinderance. Not that it isn’t nice to have your nest to return to, but that’s a catch 22. For some people, the fact that you can afford to fail means that you don’t take things seriously enough. If not working means possibly sleeping in the car because you can’t pay rent, you’ll find the muscles to work full time. If failing out of college means poverty, class becomes much more interesting. I would actually suggest getting your own apartment or split Trent somewhere so that if you’re not working or doing the minimum it will be a risk to you.
I’d also recommend that if you’re not making it to class, maybe try either trade school or community college. If you’re doing community college, you can generally pay your way. That way the fact that you spent $400 a course might motivate you a bit more.
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You fix a lack of discipline by being disciplined.
For an extreme solution, you’re well below the cutoff age for any military branch.
Have you tried going to work early every day? It won’t help you at work but it will help you. Have you tried getting up when the alarm goes off and staying up? Have you tried setting your meals ahead of time and sticking to it, come what may, no substituting with a snack?
On your day off, draw up a list of tasks(I’m guessing some chores) and actually do them. None of whatever it is you would usually do(video games?) until they’re done.
Practice makes perfect. In small things- ordinary life- as much as in specific skills.
Start with simple goals. ‘I’m going to be five minutes early for work every day this week’ then bigger ones ‘I’m going to go to bed at 9:30 and be up by 6’ and you’re building discipline.
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So, I was in a pretty similar position to you, though my procrastination and absenteeism started in middle school and never really cleared up. My last year of high school I was going to class less than once a week to hand in assignments or write tests and spending the rest of my time at home reading, programming, or playing video games. The school tolerated this because I got an exemption from a psychiatrist (who I was forced to start seeing after I said, basically, "If I have to waste another fucking year of my life in that place I'm going to end up killing myself," to my mother when explaining why I kept skipping class.)
The psychiatrist diagnosed me with "social anxiety" which I didn't agree with at the time, and still don't, but I played along because it at least meant being able to graduate on time.
I moved out at 18 to go to college. Predictably, it did not go very well. While the coursework was trivial (freshman CS) the profs were hardasses about attendance, so I dropped out after two semesters. Moved back in with my mom to her great disappointment and did odd jobs to make my student loan payments and help with rent. (Picking apples in autumn and a part-time gig at the butcher's shop she worked at for the rest of the year, mostly. I didn't have trouble with showing up to these jobs for some reason.)
If discipline (conscientiousness?) is a Real Thing then I'd wager I'm <1st percentile. Whatever standard script typically engenders "work ethic" in people was completely ineffective on me; the only thing that's motivated me to do things I actively don't want to do is an overwhelming sense of panic and imminent fear of disaster. This is a pretty severe character flaw, there's no sugar-coating it, and I haven't been able to overcome it except in brief spurts. I've tried a friend's Vyvanse prescription: it seemed to make it easier to initiate annoying tasks, but I wasn't in school or working full-time, so I have no idea if it would've been effective in those scenarios, and it may have been placebo to begin with.
I'm 29 now, and unfortunately I never found a satisfactory solution to this problem; I gave up on the "standard" normie wageslave life a long time ago. Post-COVID, online courses and remote work might be a viable means to cope with the issue -- when I was in college, the idea of an online class being remotely equivalent to a "real" one was pure fantasy. You can, apparently, even get student loans for them now. I found my own personal success (such as it is) in other ways: I made a decent chunk of money in crypto early on (ironically using some of the student loan money which I'm still making the minimum payments on -- the interest rate is so low, it's the only Rational(tm) choice) and multiplied it with some Wallstreetbets-tier investments. The COVID years were particularly kind, and Nvidia secured the bag, so to speak. This was enough to live independently and comfortably (though not lavishly) for the foreseeable future.
This came out as more of a blackpilling post then I expected; I don't know that I have any advice per se, as "get lucky with crypto 8+ years ago" is not exactly actionable. That said, if you aren't able to solve the root of your issue (as I wasn't) it's worth considering more unconventional coping methods, e.g., finding some way to make enough money to achieve your goal of living independently. You are clearly very literate, fluent in English, intelligent, and an American citizen: this combination alone puts you ahead of a lot of people, and there has never been a better time to make a living on the internet. If your morals are at all flexible and you have a bit of risk tolerance (and if the alternative is "getting kicked out and eventually living on the streets", well...) there are many roads available.
Probably not the answer you were looking for, but (personally) the NEET life is great, if you can find a way to make it happen.
I appreciate the post regardless. This is useful info since you usually hear stories of how people get better and fix everything. I generally have a low risk tolerance (I'm the type to tell my friends or relatives to just invest in the S&P instead of random crypto or to buy the S&P instead of real estate and renting it out), but it makes sense that I'd need to change that as the situation gets more desperate. I will keep this in the back of my mind as I try other strategies.
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I wish I YOLO’d my student loans for online university (ASU) into crypto / apehood.
All I got was a shitty Masters (and Bachelors) and a continued career in retail.
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It sounds like you don't really need advice anymore, and I never had as bad of a problem as you or OP did, but there are outdoor manual labor jobs that pay better and have more of a pathway to retirement than those two. (I guess butchering isn't outdoors, which opens up even more opportunities.). May be worth exploring--not everyone has to be a programmer, and tasks involving trees are supposedly going to be difficult to automate.
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I can't give you any life advice, but it might be worth thinking about leveling up your diet and fitness. It sounds like you have a lot of time to work out. Why not start a serious lifting habit?
While this doesn't really fix anything, it will eventually give you a lot more energy and self-esteem that will make it easier to tackle other problems. There's good evidence that exercise, especially weightlifting, is more effective than therapy. Ditch the therapy and meds, and apply barbell.
I don't envy your situation, but I'd kill to be 25 again and have the energy and muscle-building ability of a 25 year old.
Will second this! It's hard to do without discipline but even starting small could majorly help out.
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One mental trick that's worked for me:
Tell yourself constantly that you'll procrastinate later. Make a deal with yourself. "If I do X, then I get to do Y later". If you don't do X, then you don't get Y.
This is a mental trick that helped me a fair bit; I also had trouble going to class. It wasn't the class I minded, it was the whole process, especially if the class was far or I needed to do significant prep work before class. Eventually I sort of turned it into a whole process where I'd get up early on the day I had to go to class, get a long shower, enjoy the walk, go to campus early and have a long, leisurely meal and coffee before class actually started and then finish it. If I didn't go to class, I didn't get to go through that whole process.
Similarly, childish "no movie tonight because I didn't finish this paper first" works. I find with this kind of bargaining that I do with myself, I end up enjoying the rewards more because I worked to balance them in my mind.
Also, look at your lifestyle and see what small habits you can build up to help you cultivate a sense of ownership and responsibility. Judging from your post there's a bunch of stuff you don't feel responsible for, both in your own life and that of others, and so naturally you are letting it slack. It doesn't have to be anything massive, like the health and wellbeing of your family members, but start small, like paying the bills and utilities for the house (mostly possible on even a minimum wage salary in 2024). Those responsibilities become guiding lights if used properly - you will know, always, that if you don't pay the power bill you will have no electricity, so you will make damn sure you pay it.
I can't speak for medication and therapy, In my own experience I found therapy mostly expensive waste, but I know others who've been on medication and they've said it helped.
I've tried similar things to this, but I either do something else I want to do that isn't part of the rule, literally forget my own rule and break it by mistake, or just break my own rule intentionally (and then feel really bad about it afterwards)
This is interesting. Maybe it can explain why I manage to go to work but not go to class? When I don't go to work, it's just a few people that work per shift, so I know it would be a huge hassle for the manager to call someone in, or if no one can come in, everyone else would just have to work harder to cover for me being gone. So, I feel responsible for all the extra work I'm putting on them. However, when I miss class, especially big lectures, I am able to slip through the cracks. No one really cares one way or the other if I show up or not. This also might explain why with some classes, it takes longer for me to stop going. With those classes, I usually made acquaintances with someone in the class, or I participated in class with the professor a lot in a small, discussion type class. A lot of those classes I still end up not showing up to eventually, but some of them I managed to actually pass. I need to think about how this fits other situations in my life
I have to say though, if this is correct, the solution is scary to me because it is basically "be more intertwined and interdependent with other people" which seems opposite to my goal of independence.
The latter is a good point, but nobody is really truly independent in the modern age. You use a product built off the back of hundreds of people and over a dozen different suppliers with their own unique supply chains to access the internet.
Instead of obsessing over how reliant you are on others, try becoming someone others are dependent on. Your whole mindset changes once you realize you've become that someone. I can't recommend climbing that tree too high, as it's awful for stress, but great for many things, not least of which is money.
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How confident are you that you have a problem with "discipline" as opposed to a problem with "energy"?
To clarify, I'd say the classic hyperactive ADHD person has a primary problem with discipline, not with energy. They can maintain a high level of activity, but it's poorly directed toward their professed goals. In contrast, somebody who's, say, chronically severely sleep deprived may incidentally have a problem with discipline, but primarily has a problem with energy -- there's not enough energy available to do what's needed to stay on top of their responsibilities, and redirecting it more strategically won't fix the problems.
Are you somebody who chronically doesn't do things you need to do, or are you somebody who just chronically doesn't do things, full stop? Where does the day go? I'd say if it tends to go to "the lowest-effort available alternative at any given moment", you may have a problem with energy, rather than discipline. This may have a variety of potential causes, including physical unwellness.
I'm having a hard time differentiating between the two. When I read
I was thinking I was the former, but then reading
has me second guessing myself and now I think it's the latter. I think "lowest-effort available alternative" is what's really confusing me. I'm guessing scrolling social media is a "lowest-effort available alternative", but is playing a video game that? Maybe it depends on the game? Maybe going back to that "comfort game" counts, but playing a new game doesn't? Does going to a movie theater or playing a tcg count? I'm guessing that one doesn't as low effort.
When I'm not working, I'm usually on the computer where I browse social media or play video games. If I'm really into a game, I will play that a lot, otherwise I'm usually on social media, mostly youtube. I am the type who gets super into things, so if I'm super into a game, I will play it a ton, research a ton about it, think about it a lot, etc. Similarly, if I find a nice youtube video or other social media post, I will go through all the creator's stuff to find more, or I will find more content on that topic. Around once a week or two, I will go out and do something. Usually it's to play a TCG, sometimes a movie, sometimes other things, and that's not including going to the therapist/psychiatrist.
So I'm thinking of "discipline" as a broader and longer term thing that's about persisting at overcoming obstacles in a structured and intentional way over time. This persistence takes, as one of its prereqs, at least the occasional availability of "energy", the immediate capacity to exert effort to overcome obstacles here and now.
It takes discipline (for many people) to keep a clean house day in and day out. It takes energy to get up right now and wash the dishes. If you rarely or never have the energy to get up and wash the dishes, you're missing one of the key parts of the discipline of keeping a clean house.
But it also takes energy to do things that aren't necessarily part of any pattern of discipline -- it takes energy to organize friends for an outing, or to ride your bike to the bodega, or to refine a tactic in a competitive videogame.
Set aside whether you're willing or able to pursue a sustained program of efforts for the sake of delayed or diffuse rewards -- the realm of discipline. In the more basic sense of energy, do you feel like you have the inclination to exert moderate immediate efforts for moderate near term rewards? Or do you consider exerting such efforts, but think "that sounds like too much work" and accept known low rewards for the sake of lowering effort?
Like being on time -- you're preparing to leave for work, and you get the moderate reward of getting there on time if you leave now instead of leaving in 10 minute. This isn't necessarily a matter of discipline and long term thinking -- this is "right now, is it too much effort to get up and leave for the sake of being less stressed out 10 minutes from now?"
Potentially it's a matter of discipline if there's a lot of earlier preparation that has to go into being ready to leave on time. But if it's just "I'm going to watch YouTube for another 10 minutes at the cost of being late", that seems like a different problem. What's it feel like to you?
Or say at your shitty min wage job you were actually paid daily for performance in some legible way, so that if you were able to do "50% more work" in your next shift than you normally do, by some measurable outcomes, you'd take home 50% more money at the end of that day. Does that opportunity sound appealing or aversive?
Okay, this is making much more sense. I definitely have the energy, but not the discipline. I will sometimes cook even when I can order food, but never consistently. I will sometimes randomly clean my room, but never consistently. I will spend hours troubleshooting a game so I can pirate it or make the mods work, and then not even play it afterwords (does anyone else do this? I know "spend hours modding skyrim and then play for 30 minutes and quit" is a thing, but I haven't heard anything similar about trying to get a pirated game to work). I also do walk to the corner store when I want a specific drink instead of just grabbing what's in my fridge and I do spend time reviewing and thinking about my play in competitive video games. So, I think I do have the energy, but not the discipline.
That's good! Developing discipline is much more tractable if you have, in principle, the energy to do the shit you need to do!
Not that it's trivial, but at least it does sound like you're asking the right question.
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Just follow your enjoyment. figure out what you love doing more than anything and explore that. Work a crappy job until you can figure out how to monetize what you love.
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Sounds like you don't have a clear goal or reason for getting a degree other than that it's vaguely something you feel expected to do.
I want a degree so that I can get a job that pays well enough to let me live by myself and be independent. I do not want to be dependent on my mother my whole life.
I don't feel like I have any meaningful way to give input on changing motivations, but this part of things seems like a good area for focus. You don't need a degree to live your life and be independent. For many goals, a degree can be instrumentally useful, but if the core goal is really just earning a respectable living, you don't need one. You need to pick a specific skill, develop it, and show up and do it in a tolerably reliable fashion. Which skill? Whatever. Learn to do auto body, wait tables, drive a forklift, put shingles on... whatever. The specifics do matter to how much money and opportunity you'll have, but the point is that you'll make a respectable living and be a respectable man if you just pick something and do it well. You don't need a bullshit political science degree to make a buck sanding bumpers down for painting.
You are right I don't need one, but the lifetime earnings premium you get from a college degree is still very high despite the recent "college is a waste of money" trend. The lifetime earnings premium from a degree is still there even if you include super expensive for profit private colleges and stereotypical no money humanities degrees. If you exclude those, the numbers favor a degree even more.
A college degree is a great investment, but if you’re the person you describe yourself as it may not pay off for you.
To be precise, a degree is a good investment because it signals the discipline you don't have (alongside a mid-tier or better IQ), allowing you to get certain types of entry-level jobs which require it.
If you have the discipline problem you say you do, then getting a generic degree will cost you more than most (that is necessary for the signal to be credible) and benefit you less (because you will suck at graduate jobs and be miserable until you are fired).
If you are doing a typical blue-collar job (solo trades jobs are different obviously), you are checking in with the boss multiple times a day. If you are doing a graduate professional job, you are checking in with the boss 2-3 times a week. (Scrum requires a daily check-in, but is only acceptable to programmers who see themselves as white-collar professionals because the daily Scrum call is explicitly not run by a manager. When the daily Scrum call is used as a tool for beating up slow developers, the Scrum team stops producing code and starts producing resumes). You can be productive with much less discipline if you are working closely with your boss.
If you are able to hack physically tough blue-collar jobs like construction, then your personal graduate wage premium is much smaller than it is for the average college attendee, who is a woman.
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Only for certain, difficult degrees.
As others have noted - the premium is worthless if you don't finish. And you're already in the hole from previous failures and delaying the start of recognizing that premium. Even if your family or loans paid for it. Just do the algebra on it.
I say this not to flagellate you but to reinforce: A degree is not a panacea, and just straight up isn't necessary for independence almost anywhere.
Is it nice? Sure, as an owner of one, I'd say so. Would I be fine and happy without one (but with a work ethic)? Absolutely.
You can always go back and get one after you're independent. I can't imagine how great college would have been if I knew how to fuckin' do it better.
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It doesn't matter how big the earnings premium is if you're not gonna do it.
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Were you working on a useful degree?
There are super successful individuals that help pull up the median. If you land in the bottom quintile of the distribution the value is less certain.
Have you considered a trade? You'd be developing the relationships and interdependence that may help you with motivation to improve your attendance.
Did you take the ASVAB? Have you talked to a recruiter, perhaps the military would provide the structure you need.
The military seems promising, but apparently it is huge pain to join with an ADHD diagnosis from what I just googled. (I saw "medical evaluation" as part of the recruitment process after googling what the ASVAB was and then wondered how ADHD would apply). That would've been nice to know prior to going to a psychiatrist.
I have considered trades as well, but I'm unsure if the physical health problems are worth it. I suppose that just might be the best option left out of a bad group.
Ok, tradesman here- you can succeed in a trade if you can’t sit still enough or care about boring useless arbitrary crap enough to do well in school. You cannot succeed in a trade if you lack the good discipline and willingness to work to do well in school(you’re on the motte so I’m assuming you’re smart enough).
I leave up to you to determine which category you’re in. By all means, try to get an electrical apprenticeship if you think you’re just ADHD(but do be aware you’re probably A) gonna get drug tested and B) going to have to take a math class, regardless of whether you already know it, to move up). But if you have issues with discipline, call an army recruiter if you can’t fix them.
Tradesmen with severe physical health problems tend to be alcoholics who smoke heavily and eat fast food multiple times a day while not sleeping very much. As a rule, if you don’t have preexisting physical health problems and make it through your first year or two(almost all tradesmen have to start on a construction site) then just take care of your body and the work won’t be too tough on it.
Just to supplement this. My dad has worked in a quite physical trade for 40 years now. (He's a glazier.) He has no particular ailments associated with it - he's a good weight, hale and healthy, still very physically capable. He's never been a overeater or a drinker, and I think getting lots of exercise each day has kept his level high. I'll be lucky to be as healthy as he is when I'm in my 60s.
The one problem he has is that he's had multiple melanomas removed, because he did not wear sunscreen at any point in all that time lol. He knows better, he doesn't deny it, but he still doesn't put it on.
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You could go talk to a recruiter about your diagnosis and see what they say. You need to do more things in general and talking to a recruiter is an easy goal to set and accomplish.
Trades can damage your health but it's not a given. Sitting in an office all day does it's own sort of damage.
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Maybe spending some time every day thinking about your goal in a positive sense (focus on what's good about it) might help motivate you?
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