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PaperclipPerfector  1mo ago (text post)   31397 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 30, 2024

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And the third order effect, or one of them: when merchants of [banned thing] can't use normal conflict resolution/contract enforcement methods, they have to invoke base violence in order to operate. Wars over turf, breaking kneecaps to collect on debts, burning down establishments that don't pay protection, killing snitches, those all become necessary to the business. And then it eventually becomes organized and systemic.

This is just taking the US experience of Prohibition and expanding it to cover all bans in all countries.

Taiwan and Japan ban drugs just fine. They are not police states. There are no gangs or violence associated with drugs.

Some things are hard to ban, some easier. And there is a large amount of cultural difference too. But most bans do actually reduce consumption of the banned thing without too many negative consequences.

This is not just US Prohibition. Drug gang violence is a major problem. A review of murder statistics implies our high murder rates are drug gang activity. We are indeed not a nation of Japanese people and Japanese Americans are not typically imprisoned or killed over illegal drugs.

They are not police states. There are no gangs or violence associated with drugs.

I've said it before, I am completely prepared to admit that Japanese people are less likely to be violent regardless of the policies they operate under.

See my point:

correlating more or less with how badly people still want [banned thing].

Japan doesn't have the huge drug-addled underbelly that the U.S. does, to my knowledge.

But they DO have Yakuza, who keep things orderly but, I emphasize, STILL rely on violence to enforce their business practices.

And allegedly the decline of the Yakuza is opening up space for more violent operations who are harder to police because they're less legible. Although as mentioned elsewhere, Japan is pretty close to being a police state.

So... my EXACT, PRECISE point still applies to Japan, even if less obviously so.

Japan is totally a police state.

Have you been to Japan? I spent two and a half weeks there, spending time in various parts of the country, and I think I can count the number of police officers I saw on one hand.

"Police state" isn't just a function of uniformed officers. I don't totally agree with the description, but if you consider "fearing the police" a critical part of a police state, I'd point to the absurd conviction rate and the idea that you'd just expect to get arrested if you started any sort of disruptive crime as indicators that the Japanese largely "fear" (probably uncharitable, more like "respect and comply with" in practice, I think) law enforcement.

As compared to the US where I've seen no shortage of people doing (minor, mostly non-violent) crimes right in front of police officers.

I'd point to the absurd conviction rate

The Japanese conviction rate being so high is mostly a result of two factors:

  1. The Japanese take confession cases to trial (the confession is presented as evidence), so they show up as "conviction" in Japanese statistics whereas they show up as "not a trial" in almost every other country's. Because confessions are very common, this drastically inflates Japan's conviction rate.

  2. Japanese prosecutors are actually quite reticent about pressing charges without a confession, so cases that might show up as "acquittal" in another country tend to show up as "not a trial" in Japan.

Japanese culture is indeed hilariously disgusted with criminals (the best example is probably the manga/anime Death Note, in which a vigilante who decides to kill all the criminals - but who can only kill the ones who the justice system has already caught - is presented as morally ambiguous rather than an utter lunatic), but AIUI their justice system isn't actually as vicious as you'd expect from that (note that Japan does not have jury trials, which is probably a good thing).

to kill all the criminals - but who can only kill the ones who the justice system has already caught

inaccurate, there are some cases shown where Death Note vigilante kills criminals before they could be caught

Depends on your definition of "caught". He can kill identified criminals before they're punished (though this is very much a minority of his kills), but not unidentified criminals (unless he happens to witness it personally; I know his second kill is one of these, and the "associates" L brings in for the Yotsuba investigation might count, but I don't recall any others). He has no special powers of investigation, which is the real bottleneck in the criminal justice system.

They obtain the confessions by coercion, basically what detective novels call "the third degree". You can be held without bail for 23 days at a time, and if you don't confess in that time they can re-arrest you for another 23 days on your way out of the jail.

I mean, false confessions are a problem with the Japanese system, yes. Was thinking about editing that in but you pre-empted me.

Note that while they do push pretty hard, it's still AIUI hardly peine forte et dure (either in the original "food and water on alternate days" sense or the later "lol we crush you with weights" sense).

There are no gangs . . . associated with drugs.

I thought the Yakuza were pretty involved in the drugs trade.

Taiwan and Japan ban drugs just fine. ... There are no gangs or violence associated with drugs.

This isn't true. First link I found.

To a first order approximation it is true. The murder rate in Japan is around 0.3. In the United States it is 7.

Drug use is confined to a tiny minority. And with almost no junkies, there is almost no market for drugs.

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