site banner
PaperclipPerfector  5d ago (text post)   23667 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 30, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

2
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Have you considered the possibility that you are wrong about your perceptions of various politicians or political philosophies? Yes. It's hard to get an accurate perception of them when all you see of them is what is depicted in traditional media and social media. I'd like to see more of the personal side of politicians so I can understand them better.

Maybe Trump is not a threat to democracy, maybe conservatives aren’t being mean to people violating our federal border laws, maybe Trumps policies are absolutely in no way a threat to minority groups.

Maybe so, deep down, but when I see how incoherent he is at public speaking, or read the names he calls his adversaries, or spreading rumors about Haitians in Springfield, OH, eating dogs, I can't help but feel like he shouldn't be anywhere near the White House.

I think there is a mental tax to hearing these sorts of engineered slogans all the time, trying to internalize them as if they were true, and not being able to create a coherent understanding of the world which allows them to be.

I think that’s the burnout you’re feeling. You’re being completely bombarded by increasingly impossible to square lies, and keeping track is tiring you out. I could see this being especially tiring if you live in a place where accidentally saying the sky is blue will get you in trouble socially.

This an accurate summary, thank you.

You seem particularly upset by the Haitians in Springfield eating pets story. We're you also upset by the Russian collusion, or pee dossier stories?

I think there were a couple elements to the Hatian story that gave it the legs it had. There was a woman arrested while apparently eating a cat, though in Canton not Springfield and she isn't Hatian. There was a 911 call reporting 4 Hatians stealing geese from a park. There was a viral Facebook post purporting to describe 3rd or 4th hand about a lost cat found field dressed hanging from a tree. The memes of Trump saving kittens and ducks were sharable because cats and the internet.

It seems to me that this is one of those misinformation stories that's only horrible when it's my evil out-group doing it. When it's the righteous and good in group repeating Russian collusion, pee dossier or Hunter Biden laptop is Russian disinformation, disinformation it's OK.

Just to steel man the eating pets story:

These are people who are desperately poor, who come from a place which is one of the poorest in the entire world. It doesn’t seem out of the question that they would need to be told not to eat local dogs, cats, ducks, and geese.

There are plenty of Americans who poach deer or raccoons or squirrels or whatever else they can find who are also desperately poor and live in rural parts of Montana.

There were local reports that this was happening. It doesn’t seem like a big stretch that it would be, the locals were saying it was, and Trump repeated their reports.

If we are both sides-ing this: it is heinous the types of lies that Democrats are telling people about maternal healthcare. Their intentional ambiguity about abortion or what it means is leading to doctors not knowing what they’re allowed to do, and leading to mothers who think that they are going to be denied healthcare while they’re having a miscarriage.

This is leading to women engaging in extremely dangerous behavior, which the Democrats then use as fodder for their power games. If they would simply stop lying about the state of maternal healthcare, and stop lying about what their desires WRT abortion, they would have a net positive effect on the healthcare of women. But instead they are willing to let women put themselves in danger at sort of unwilling martyrs. It’s disgusting.

Poaching deer sure. Squirrel and racoon may not even be poaching. Some states have no limits on varmit animals though you'd need permission from the landowner on private property.

It doesn’t seem like a big stretch that it would be, the locals were saying it was, and Trump repeated their reports.

This seems the most likely to me. Combined with the Canton women who ate the cat.

Upset isn't quite the word I would use to describe how I feel about it. Its more like... dumbfounded, that they would make such an incredulous claim. It doesn't surprise me that Trump would (allegedly) collude with members of the Russian government, because he strikes me as a person who would do whatever it takes to win. I don't think Trump can stand losing because he views losing as total defeat.

Though, at this point, what the hell do I know?

  • -12

Trump would (allegedly) collude

Do you believe this claim? I believe we've high quality evidence that this was manufactured at the behest of those working if not on behalf of the Clinton campaign, working independently while also working for the Clinton campaign.

This still sounds like boo-outgroup. That dastardly Trump is the sort to collude with Russia to win.

Poor Hatians would never eat a cat.

At best I'm reasonably confident a Hatian in Springfield, OH hasn't eaten a cat it the trailing 6 months. I would be less confident that no Hatian has never eaten a cat anywhere.

I'm also less confident that no European-American has never eaten a cat anywhere, but that's no reason to say "they're eating the cats" about that group.

If the claim were Europeans are using cat pelts as a traditional remedy for arthritis?

Surely we'd be able to point a finger at at least one smoking gun case if the traditional remedy claim was relevant?

Neither ‘recent immigrants misunderstand cultural norms enough to eat pets’ nor ‘a presidential candidate colluded with an enemy nation to increase his chances of winning’ are Bigfoot-is-the-babydaddy level implausible. Trump repeated claims from a local and democrats repeated claims from elsewhere. Both of these claims are probably false, but there’s not one that’s clearly much worse than the other.

Incredulous? Have you been to Haiti?

My favorite response to this on Twitter;

“In 2023 there was footage of Haitians eating people, and the thought that they might eat cats is too offensive to consider?”

Bush meat is a real thing. Recent immigrants from countries that eat bush meat doing what they did in their home countries before they are acculturated to their new environment is not even remotely shocking to consider. I’d be more amazed if it didn't happen.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats