This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Eh, winning the first ten minutes counts for more than winning the last eighty. Most people turn out early. I agree he's doing worse than against Biden.
Much worse. He is constantly allowing Harris to set him up for typical leftist or moderate establishment framings of things like foreign policy and racism and he has little ability to get out of those traps other than by raising his voice, thus looking defensive, and repeating the same talking points about how the Democrats are destroying the country and so on - which I happen to agree with to some extent, but I don't think repeating it and rambling about it plays well to the electorate. He failed to figure out some kind of judo or direct assault to get out of some very typical leftist traps, such as accusations of racism, in a way that would make him look good. He has allowed Kamala to look like the calmer one of the two. He brought up abortion for absolutely no reason before Kamala even did. He is shitting the bed so hard that even a bunch of people on /r/conservative are criticizing his performance. Which is unfortunate for me because, while I hate both sides, on the whole I would prefer Trump to win because I live in a Democrat-run city and I can see close-up the consequences of Democrat policies.
To be fair, the deck is stacked against him if for no other reason than that leftist attitudes are more prevalent in the public mind than right-wing ones, and the moderator might be a bit unfair. But he did not do a good job of preparing for this debate.
That's a ridiculous standard though. In that setting, those are superweapons. There is no judo counter and no defense, the only thing you can do is absorb the hit and press forward.
Well to be honest, I can't think of any great ones off the top of my head. But surely there must be some out there, and Trump has people funded by millions of dollars working to help him with these things. At the very least, maybe he could point out that Kamala was picked for Vice President for racist reasons. On the other hand, to explain to normies why that is a bad thing would probably take some calmness and sustained intellectual ability at explanation that Trump might simply not be capable of.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I had to tune out at the first commercial break, I can't stand any more of these two.
It's pretty clear Trump's lost this one, he made so many simple errors that he could have avoided by simply staying on message.
All anyone is going to talk about tomorrow is going to be the Haitians. How that will play is anyone's guess.
Yeah, talking about the dogs was him trying to get the media to deny it, which means the media is talking about the Haitians. Didn't help in the debate, but might help afterwards.
Yep. The more we litigate this the better for Trump. It's a brilliant ploy, and I bet his team even told him to say it.
It's the right-wing equivalent of George Floyd. The more this gets "debunked", the more it raises awareness of the tragedy that unfolded under Biden's watch.
He lost the debate in my eyes, but winning debates never matters anyway.
More options
Context Copy link
There does seem to me more evidence coming out that police were aware that Haitians were taking waterfowl from public waterways, but that’s a far cry from killing pets.
Of course, those of us paying attention will remember that they tried to deny the ducks and geese too, but normies won’t care.
What evidence? Snopes isn't great but they say this photo is from Columbus, Ohio not Springfield. And there's no evidence the man is Haitian and not just some black American. There's this video from someone at what looks like a public community meeting in Springfield claiming such (@1:04). But who knows how legit the rumors he's quoting are.
Just so we're clear. The video of a cat eating woman (Alexis Telia Ferrell) was also not from Springfield and was not known to be Haitian rather than just some black American, probably on drugs.
After learning how common such culinary practices are in Haiti, I actually find it hard to believe that it isn't happening in Ohio. It should have been predictable. It's not exactly easy to prove someone has been eating cats, especially if they have even an inkling that they're not supposed to--the evidence tends to disappear. Moreover, the authorities and media have very little incentive to look for the evidence, since it can only bring trouble for them--better to just say there is no legitimate evidence and move on. 20,000 is a lot of people, and Haitians aren't exactly known for their tempered good judgement. Even if most of them know they're not supposed to be eating the cats, it only takes a few. If only 1 percent kept on doing so, then that's 200 people. If 200 people in town start eating the local "wildlife", then that's going to impact very quickly. It's basically the same with driving without a license, contracting diseases, and all the other things that are apparently going down. These are massive impacts on a small town like Springfield, Ohio.
More options
Context Copy link
EXCLUSIVE: Police Audio, Report Confirm Haitian Goose-Hunting In Ohio: ‘They All Had Geese In Their Hands’
The story wouldn't have gone viral if it was about geese. People love cats and dogs almost as much as they love kids. Normies don't care about geese.
I wouldn't assume that. On multiple occasions, I have seen motorists stop in the road to allow geese to cross.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I've never met anyone who has anything nice to say about them, including blacks and latinos, for what it's worth.
Lived in Miami for a few years, including in Little Haiti for over 6 months, so I think I'm above-average qualified to talk about Haitians at least.
Haitians, culturally, are... fine. There's a lot to say about them that I could go on about and most generalizations are going to be at least a little reductionist, so there's that disclaimer. They don't party quite as hard as the Dominicans by a long shot, but they are generally above-median openness, which I consider a virtue. Of course, they tend to get along with better with white people than other immigrants, with that said (and Dominicans in particular, that's a complicated and tough relationship). The education level is genuinely lacking, and it's pretty prevalent -- most Haitians grew up speaking Haitian-Creole which only got a written version to match maybe two decades ago IIRC, so schooling when present was in French, so you get really a strong rich-poor divide, with most being poor (partly as a result of frankly some long-lasting hostile foreign wealth extraction, partly the language thing, partly very poor self-governance and partly of course some terrible economic/natural disaster luck). There's a small handful of comparably wealthier older-generation Haitians around, similar situation to Cubans, but not a ton. They as a culture tend to love old people, generally, so many Haitians find themselves in the (large) retirement/medical complex in Florida, lots of friendly Haitian ladies there I've met. There's a germ of truth in bits about unfaithfulness and generally chaotic family relations being the norm but I'm not sure how far to take it.
Must say though! Local folk magic including yes voodoo but mostly the variant "santeria" is still alive and well overall, and that includes things like the occasional chicken sacrifice. However, you're in the States, very little chance people are actually eating cats and dogs and pets. I could theoretically see a priest eating a ritually sacrificed chicken (that was a thing in the Old Testament too) but beyond that I don't really think so. I consider this kind of prevalent superstition a negative thing, but at least some percentage of it is a cultural divide (but another part is, well, I AM actually a relatively devout Christian and on a personal level I consider aspects of santeria to be somewhat legitimately Satanist, but that's neither here nor there).
My brother spent a summer working at a resort with a lot of Haitians. He said they were the worst people he has ever had to interact with. On the other hand, he's only had positive things to say about Dominicans, Cubans, and other Latinos.
Anyway... anecdotes are anecdotes. I'd look at the actual country of Haiti and decide if we want more of that here.
The quality and prosperity of a country is not always strongly correlated with the drive/quality/cultural traits/etc of its people. Historical quirks come in to play too. Studying the history of Haiti is fairly illuminating.
The quality and prosperity of a country is strongly correlated to the intelligence of its citizens. While there are negative outliers like North Korea there are no significant positive outliers. Yes, a sufficiently awful government can keep a country below its potential. But nothing can take a country with low potential (like Haiti) and make it a high performer. It has never been done, and not for lack of trying.
This is similar to arguing that IQ is environmental because you can malnourish and starve a genius to lower their IQ. This is true, but the opposite of course is not true. You can't take a person with an IQ of 85 and make them a particle physicist. The best you can do is help everyone live up to their potential.
That nothing is called oil.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Tomorrow one side is going to be running with immigrants are eating cats and the other side will be running with this clip over and over.
https://x.com/ronfilipkowski/status/1833594196630114747?s=10
The funny part is I bet that guy is voting for Trump.
It's a high variance play. If you assume Trump is still playing strategically and isn't lost in the canyons of his own subconscious, that probably indicates that Trump thinks he's losing.
But the fact vs blood libel debate is going to overshadow who said what about fracking when.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link