site banner
PaperclipPerfector  2mo ago (text post)   29569 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 26, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Campy is at least trying to be humorous which I appreciate. The mods post was just sneering. They literally can't think of a single reason beyond contrarianism that people aren't supportive of Ukraine?

You don't have to call me a "they," I'm not non-binary.

The question wasn't "Why aren't you supportive of Ukraine?" It's "Why are you pro-Russia?" Those aren't the same thing.

You don't have to call me a "they," I'm not non-binary.

Well, you've narrowed it down to a 50/50 choice, but IMO "they" is the appropriate pronoun to use when facing that unknown.

What happened to he/she?

We dropped it in favor of the more concise "they" because the singular/plural distinction wasn't important enough to maintain for many people compared to the convenience of having a single word. It also nicely dodges the complaints some people had about prioritizing one gender over another in language due to the ordering of "he or she", which was a rather obnoxious part of the gender war a few decades back.

Try using that in a conversation with a friend, and pay attention to how he/she responds. I have a feeling they would find it unnatural.

In speech it would take the or as in "Whatever he or she would like to do." I've used this phrase as long as I've been speaking in such contexts, but admittedly I'm probably older than you, my ways are likely not your ways, etc. I've never had any pushback. They I'd of course use if there were more than one person, and that's a legitimate strategy.

"If one member of your group wants a single room, he or she should reserve ahead."

" If people want individual rooms, they should reserve ahead."

I just made that scenario up; I am not in hospitality.

Well, it's the Motte, so a simple Bayesian prediction would have a much greater than 50/50 chance of being right...

I've been around for years now. I guess someone who doesn't read my posts might be unsure. But someone who's been hate-reading me enough to complain about me regularly probably is not.

Unmodded post, he can say whatever as a citizen.

And in every discussion you will see the same comments about how they're against Ukraine because globalism or trans people or something. It just feels wildly incongruous every time, like trolling.

I was comparing it to campys post, campys post has no mod flair and is just a standard citizen so... try again?

I generally see the explanations about globalism go into the history of nato expansion and western expansion, aggression and regime change in pretty depth. I see the other sides explanations seem to have no knowledge of history that predates the Russian invasion and they are full of incongruity, Russia being both a paper tiger that can be stopped with surplus western military gear while also being a threat that will soon be sailing across the Atlantic with western Europe in ashes behind it. Or the nonsense about wanting Ukraine in NATO, even though we are not willing to send western people to go die for them now, apparently their strategic importance will change somehow if the war ends.

It's nonsense which is why people tend to resort to reddit post level dismissiveness. If I were to speculate about their motives as they do about mine I'd say they are either brainwashed leftwing people that got caught up in the bad orangeman loves Russia propaganda that the MIC pushed to keep their wars going, or maybe some kind of boomercon with early stage dementia that can't see the difference between today and 1980 and somehow thinks this is a western chauvinism thing when the people pushing for this war would like nothing more than to toss western values into the trash bin.

That post would be modded if anyone else said it.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats