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Of course there is something illegitimate about it. There was a process to determine a candidate. After that process was followed (and that process has been followed for decades now) the democrats decided “it was no longer in our best interest to follow the process.” They then used a lot of political pressure to force Biden out.
It would’ve been legitimate if the democrats did this during the primary. The whole reason why it is illegitimate me is they broke with decades old practice because they were afraid they’d lose.
It's not illegitimate for a candidate to withdraw. Was he pressured? No doubt. But who actually disagrees that, even if the polls weren't bad, he's not fit to be President for another four years?
I just don't believe anyone is honestly upset at any alleged violation of democratic norms. Notably, I don't see many Democrats complaining about this turn of events. I see Trump supporters mad that the Democrats found an "out."
Of course democrats aren’t mad. They want to win an election! But for the party to claim “democracy is on the ballot” and then through machinations reject the result of their election…it is rich.
Party elections are as democratic as the party wants them to be. "You ignored your own democratic procedures" is certainly a charge the Republicans can use against them as a talking point, but it probably won't get much traction because no one cares about the Republicans complaining about how the Democrats select their candidates.
Except no, it isn’t a private roll call. It is a weird mixture between private and public entity. The idea that this is solely an internecine conflict is weird. We as a country believe elections are good tools for figuring out the best candidates. The democrats on the one hand claim to believe this but on the other hand did an end around that process for their primary. Do they believe democracy is not suited for the task? If so, why for the general? If not, why isn’t what they are doing a national embarrassment as it may foist on the country an untested un-vetted candidate who easily could become president?
We had this discussion a few weeks back. Legally, political parties can use whatever process they like (that isn't illegal in itself) to select candidates. Including picking names out of a hat. Literal bribery and certain forms of influence are probably illegal , and in practice they try to do what makes them look "democratic" (and avoid pissing off the party faithful), but I fail to see what law you think the Democrats are breaking. Are they "hypocrites" for not being more "democratic"? I guess, maybe - see if that sticks. But it probably won't, because Democrats will see it as the concern-trolling it is.
And you aren't even clearly articulating how you think this "anti-democratic" decision came about. The actual problem for the Democrats was that there is no mechanism under the party's own rules for them to replace a candidate after he's been selected, even if the entire party leadership wanted to. That, you are correct, they couldn't have done without probably breaking some laws (or at least triggering lawsuits that would have sunk the party).
But the candidate can choose to withdraw. There could even be a good reason. Maybe Biden really does know his health won't last and he can't handle another election campaign - supposing for a moment he really believes this and is mentally competent to make that decision, would you claim he doesn't have a right to make it and that it's "undemocratic" for him to step down?
Now supposing it wasn't entirely his own choice - putting political pressure on Biden to "voluntarily" withdraw is also not against the rules. Does it strike you as sleazy and anti-democratic, reminiscent of smoke-filled back rooms? Maybe it is! Some Democrats might feel that way too. Still not illegal, and I suspect Democrats will generally prefer a chance at winning over your notion of what they aught.
Focusing again on legality! And again the point about legitamacy is multifaceted. It goes to hypocrisy. It goes to vetting (instead of a year+ there is now a few months to get the dem candidate). It goes to fair play.
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I don't think the violation of norms now is really a big deal, and it's a lot of R's concern-trolling. But on a more nuanced level, it is representative of an avoidable past failing.
Unless Biden suddenly became much worse timed exactly with the debate itself, (which is possible tbf), the issue is best summed up as "They didn't pull biden because he had dementia, they pulled him because the voters found out". The argument is that could have forseen this and pulled it when there was still time for a democratic process.
I think the correct response should be, it's not a big deal that they have to circumvent norms at this hour. But it is a big deal that it was allowed to get this late.
Suppose I urge everyone to go to the pool and shut down debate about alternative activities. Then, when we're at the pool, it starts thundering. We have to pack it in fast, and the bowling alley is next door so we go there without a vote.
Now when we get there, you find out that I had seen the weather forecast and knew there was a strong chance of storms. Simultaneously, you can agree with my decision to call it on the pool when the thunder starter, agree that once there, the bowling alley was the only logical backup, but still be very very angry with me for hiding the forecast.
Correct. But that's an issue for the Democratic party, and should be punished by Democratic party members and donors.
Nobody outside the Democratic party has any legitimate reason to care if Biden's team hid the truth from their supporters. (As opposed to caring that the President of the United States might have been unfit for duty.) Republicans saying "How dare you remove the senile old guy we were almost certain to beat?" is, as you say, concern-trolling.
I'm somewhere between you and zeke's objection on this. Closer to you, and think the concern trolling is phony. But I thikn the point about neutralizing the 'threat to democracy' rhetoric has some validity.
It is gross to criticize another’s motives when you don’t know.
Look, no one ex ante would say the Dems process was good or even legitimate. This shitty process has left us with the real possibility that Harris will become president. I don’t like many Dems, but there are some I can stomach (eg Polis). A normal process might have resulted in losing not being too bad. But now?
If you think I was saying that you are concern trolling, I'm not. I'm referring to several online R personalities on Twitter and such. If you're calling my calling that out gross, then what can I say, you're heaping woke-scolding on top of your side's concern trolling.
I thought you were saying what I’m saying was trolling when you could’ve just asked me. Sounds like you weren’t and misunderstood.
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Democrats claim “we are the party of protecting democracy.” Yet their actions — taken from the big view — show they are full of shit. I don’t really care too much about democracy qua democracy but democrats hypocrisy on the issue is legitimate.
The other potential concern for republicans is that there can be a honeymoon phase for candidates. If playing this shell game benefits the Dems, the. Republicans are right to call foul play.
C'mon, both parties claim they are the party of democracy and America and puppies.
You can go for the "Democrats are hypocrites" angle, but no one's going to care since they didn't break any laws and unless you can prove someone literally held Biden's hand and forged his signature, they didn't even break their own rules. The candidate is actually allowed to withdraw, even if his opponents would prefer that he didn't.
Yeah, there it is, the real issue. Of course you'd prefer the Democrats just lose, and of course they are going to look for a way not to lose.
You found me out! I want the Dems to lose. Yes. True. Every word. That doesnt mean everything the republicans can do from now until November is legit. I’m saying this is not legit; changing horses mid stream simply because you think you’ll lose is unprecedented and therefore presumptively illegitimate unless there is a good argument. So far, the only thing you’ve claimed is “the parties are about winning.” But that’s untrue — they are about winning within a system.
Legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder. If Democratic voters accept it then it is by definition legitimate.
The sysyem for how the Democrat party picks its candidates is wholly controlled by the Democrat party. The only people they have to convince are their voters. Thats it. There is no other measure.
This isn’t true. There are aspects controlled by state law and FEC. It isn’t just an internal manner.
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That's not how laws work.
What law do you think is being broken here?
Who said anything about laws? Illegitimacy is not about law but custom and norms. The fact you are approaching it from a legal perspective is explaining in part why we can’t seem to see eye to eye.
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Nobody is. The news is too fresh and they haven’t coalesced around the new talking points yet. They’re in the throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks phase.
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A party breaking with their own internal practices because they’re afraid they’ll lose is, again, the most legitimate action for a party to take because the entire purpose of political parties is to win. They only started doing “democratic” primaries like this since the fiasco with Hubert Humphrey, if they think going back to the smoke filled room this time around increases their odds of winning then why shouldn’t they?
After awhile, a norm is established. That norm should be followed.
But i reject the basic premise. This is like saying the sole purpose of a corporation is to create profit so if it is profitable to Jill people corporations should kill people. No — the sole purpose of a corporation is to make profit within a certain scheme and norms. Killing is outside of that scheme and therefore is not legitimate even if killing would increase profit. So to here — the party’s job is to win within democratic norms. Violating those norms to win seems illegitimate unless you are willing to bite the bullet and say “Biden isn’t fit for office including today.”
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