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PaperclipPerfector  2mo ago (text post)   2932 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for June 9, 2024

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

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Why in the world, with the two major parties bickering back and forth at each other like immature children, would I want to vote in this upcoming election? I have to be honest, I'm completely dissolutioned from voting now with the way politicians talk to each other and disrespect each other and their opposing constituents. I just can't support a political system that caters to extreme ends of platforms, where civil discourse is completely thrown out the window, where activists and politicians alike no longer listen to understand but to respond, and that really only caters to corporate interests. I live in a solidly blue state in every level of office, so I feel like my vote (and my voice) don't matter.

Like, for the presidential election, who in their right mind would want to choose between two 80-something year old white men with the only difference being one is a convicted felon? And I know that's a huge generalization, but I can't be the only one who feels that way.

Well, what do you care about in politics, more generally? What policies would you want? What should the country be doing?

Is there any level of office where your vote would matter (like maybe local government)?

When there isn't, in the races where your vote truly doesn't matter, maybe go with a protest vote, voting for candidates that have no chance but at least seem better (but still, preferably, are prominent enough that they'll get a decent number of votes—you want your protest to be heard).

Well, what do you care about in politics, more generally? What policies would you want? What should the country be doing?

In general, I care about

-Ensuring that the wealthy in this country pay their fair share in taxes -Ending our nation's contributions to the military industrial complex (I am a strict pacifist) -Immigration reform -Enshrining abortion rights in federal law -Universal healthcare -Gun control reform -Improving access to social services -Adding more options for public transportation -Promoting transparency in government -Increasing the supply of affordable housing -Implenting ranked choice voting for every level of public office

Is there any level of office where your vote would matter (like maybe local government)?

I used to think that it mattered up to at least my state government, but with how much politics have generally devolved into bickering about polar opposite positions on issues, and to ad-homs and name-calling, I've lost interest even there.

Let me put it this way; it would take a very large change in our political system and in our politicians' characters for me to be motivated to vote. And I know that people will tell me, "If you don't vote, the bad guys will win." Yes, probably, but if all of my choices are bought by the wealthy and special interest groups, or have such horrible values or ideologies, I am going to choose every time not to participate. Further, if the system at-large is only designed to be self-serving, why would I participate in it?

Well, most of those things seem like democrats would satisfy more of those. I'm not going to try hard to convince you to vote for them, as I dislike democrats more, and think most of those policies are not worth doing. Is it all the woke things that you see as horrible among the democrats?

(If you like, just say the word, and I'd be happy to give my opinions on those policies in more depth, but no pressure, there's no need to argue over all your political beliefs if you don't want to.)

No, I'm not against wokeness. I'm aware that my positions align with those of the DNC, but I'm not interested in supporting partisanship. I'm more interested in getting shit done, and I don't think that either party is willing to act with any sense of urgency towards the issues I mentioned. My perception is that they're far more concerned with keeping themselves in office by any means -- courting lobbyists, the wealthy, the influential, the elite, and then using demeaning and insulting rhetoric against their opponents.

Yeah, that's probably fair.

Primary elections are worth voting in, at least, then.

If I was in a swing state I would care. Of course I'm not given the few major cities my employers choose to build offices in. My vote truly doesn't count.

I'll vote down ballot. Libertarian candidate is worse than usual so I'm not sure who I'm going to vote for president. But it doesn't matter.

Just as a reminder, the 2016 election had a very real consequence. Donald Trump was able to install 3 conservative justices on the Supreme Court, which in turn allowed them to overturn Roe V Wade. Abortion is now illegal in about a dozen states and de facto illegal in about ten more.

Whether you think this is a big deal is your call. But I can assure you it is a huge deal for lower middle-class and poor women living in those states. So this is a reminder that elections do have consequences, even if both parties/candidates suck.

Which was the correct call, Roe v Wade was obviously a forced reading of the constitution.

But I can assure you it is a huge deal for lower middle-class and poor women living in those states.

Hahaha.

But seriously; the fixation on abortion rights is notably not a feature of the poor and working class.

It's not a fixation. There are women who get pregnant who want/need to have an abortion who no longer can. That is a direct consequence of selecting Trump for president in 2016. This shouldn't be a controversial/questionable statement.

Texas and Oklahoma banned abortion before Dobbs, and were probably going to be joined by another dozen or so states even without it.

And, to my point- abortion rights as a top priority is more of a wealthy woman thing than a poor woman thing. This is because avoiding unwanted pregnancies is A) kind of the default anyways B) already a good idea and C) obviates any desire for abortion. Poor women have actual problems to worry about, ones not the result of their own bad decisions. The PMC feminist obsession with abortion rights is mostly feminist signaling.

Well, I didn't vote for Trump in 2016 or 2020, and the candidates I did vote for didn't receive any electoral votes, so I can't say that my vote contributed to said consequence.

Right, but your last paragraph says there is no difference between the two candidates except one is a convicted felon. So I’m pointing out that that line of thinking is not correct.

Well, that's it. It's not correct, but I'm so strongly convicted in not voting that neither candidate appeals to me.

Voting for RFK Jr or minor candidates better conveys dissatisfaction. They won't win, but the major parties do pay attention to that vote. Typically they respond by making it harder to get on the ballot, but at least you've needled them.

Also it's easier to make a difference than you think. Most people do nothing. If you consistently do a weekly podcast complaining about specific things local politicians have done you'll probably get their attention.

Another thing is that you can take advantage of information asymmetry. If you print out 100 flyers and drop them off at houses along the street the politician lives on and where some of their sr staffers live they will assume it was a major city wide literature drop.

IIRC in the 2020 election, and possibly various times before, there were more ballots cast without a choice for president than the margin of victory in several important swing states. To me, at least, that seems a powerful message to politicians: I vote, but you don't have my vote, and you should do better. It also gives you a chance to vote on down ballot issues which your vote generally has more sway on anyway.

I won't even bother voting for the presidential election. Only reason I might vote is if there are ballot proposals I want to weigh in on.

Which sort of state are you in? If it's one that could go either way, I'd hold my nose and vote for the least-bad option with a chance. If elsewhere, I'd vote for the best protest who will get non-negligible votes. Signaling a protest vote at least helps display your dissatisfaction to the parties.

I live in Colorado, so the election could go either way in my state. But the thing is, I think both Biden and Trump are equally horrible. I don't want either of them in office. I could vote for a third party, but there's no chance (thanks to people buying into the myth that a third party is "wasting your vote") that they will win. So I am extremely unlikely to vote for President because no matter what I do, someone I hate will be in office.

That said, Colorado does have a really nice system of putting proposals on the ballot to be voted on by people directly. Those are often worth one's time, so I may vote just to weigh in on those.

thanks to people buying into the myth that a third party is "wasting your vote"

And Duverger's Law.

It could be worth voting for your preferred third party just as a protest. Colorado's one-sided enough that it isn't vital that you vote for someone with a chance—even if it could still go either way, it'll probably only go red if the election overall is in a best-case scenario for Trump, I imagine.

I'm considering casting a completely blank ballot on Election Day. I'm fed up with it all.

Voting is pointless because political power is 90% divorced from the formal constitution, and your vote would not be decisive anyway. But I don't relate to anything you said.

a political system that caters to extreme ends of platforms

American political parties cater to an incredibly narrow ideological window. The Trump movement represents the most radical deviation from a ten millimeter band at the center of the overton window in my lifetime, and it amounts to "actually enforce immigration laws on the books". And I guess Current Year Democrats espouse similarly deviant beliefs about one and exactly one topic (trans kids).

the two major parties bickering back and forth at each other like immature children, would I want to vote in this upcoming election? I have to be honest, I'm completely dissolutioned from voting now with the way politicians talk to each other and disrespect each other and their opposing constituents.

This is an odd perspective I get a lot from boomers. They seem to care an awful lot about the decorum of politicians and their being harmonious and "statesmanlike". To me, the lack of heated argument between candidates suggests there's no significant difference between the two. That would make voting even more pointless.

If voting in this election is worthless, voting in every election in your life has been worthless. This time there is at least a black swan chance of a constitutional crisis or illegal political purge.

This is an odd perspective I get a lot from boomers. They seem to care an awful lot about the decorum of politicians and their being harmonious and "statesmanlike". To me, the lack of heated argument between candidates suggests there's no significant difference between the two. That would make voting even more pointless.

Why do you think that it's odd? The way I see it, the character of a candidate is equally, if not more, important than their positions. If a candidate uses dehumanizing language to explain their positions, I'm most likely not voting for them even if I agree with their positons. I'm not suggesting that candidates need to agree, but I am most certainly of the opinion that they ought to respect one another's basic humanity.

If voting in this election is worthless, voting in every election in your life has been worthless. This time there is at least a black swan chance of a constitutional crisis or illegal political purge.

You're right, I agree. The first election I was able to vote in was 2012, when I didn't find our country's politics nearly as polarizing. 12 years later, I want nothing to do with politics.

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