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PaperclipPerfector  5mo ago (text post)   28011 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 27, 2024

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Beyond all doubt you say. What studies would you pull out if people demand evidence?

Studies are lower quality evidence, than the combned scoreboards of every competition involving those skills, in their entire recorded history.

But the feminists won't accept that. They'll point to the much lowers numbers of girls and women in chess and pro gaming. Or "systemic mysogyny" or some such. Less funding, less interest.

The highest ranking female chess player ever, Judit Polgar, is ranked 61st overall. There aren't any other females in the top 100. It beggars belief that mere implicit discrimination would be enough to turn the game so strongly against females at the highest levels., but I don't expect feminists to understand what something not even passing the smell test means. If there was actual explicit discrimination and rules barring women from joining they might have a point.

If people want to use the prevalence of top level female chess players as evidence for something, it probably is worth being somewhat familiar with the literature around it though.

Very roughly, the most common arguments around the the gap follow this 2008 paper, looking at the German federation. There they argue that participation fully explains the gap at the top level, though they don't really argue if the participation rate itself caused by self selection on ability, preference, social pressure, etc. There is a 2010 rebuttal arguing (probably correctly) that modeling Elo with a normal is flawed.

There was a brief resurgence of this genre when The Queen's Gambit miniseries was released, of which the chessbase article is frequently refereed to. Curiously India appears to be the exception, as subsequent analysis on multiple federations reveals.

From these I conclude that:

  • The Polgars are truely exceptional
  • Part of the top level performance gap is caused by participation rate, which itself is not really explained. My speculative view is that women are more attracted and/or a funneled towards pursuits that are higher EV (In dollars, utilitons, social good, etc.). As the old Morphy quote goes "The ability to play chess well is the sign of a wasted life."
  • Probably there remains some residual gap, though smaller in magnitude than the apparent gap, between the top female and male players. I will equivocate, and not even speculate on the reason for this.

It is probably worth being prepared for the participation rate argument though, since it is the natural rebuttal to references to the composition of top level players as evidence of inherent weakness.

Less booing, please.

You can make your (probably correct) point about preferences or abilities without taking shots at a general category.

They might, if you tell them a trans woman wants to join their darts championship.

But otherwise, so what? For any question you'll find a person taking the other side of the debate, but an honest investigation of this particular question does leave basically no doubt.

I ask because I come across these disagreements between people about chess sometimes, and I want something solid to show to the people denying sex differences. Telling them to just do some honest research probably won't help me.

Well, if you're still optimistic enough to believe addressing these responses with arguments and studies can change someone's mind, I don't want to poison you with my cynicism.

There's a >1 SD difference in shape rotation skills between the average woman and the average man. This is half as strong an effect as the male/female height difference in SD terms.

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