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I have never objected to the idea that regulation can kill innovation. Try again. Actually read what I've said and respond to it rather than a strawman. You have to at least try.
I'm following this conversation from the sidelines, and you're sure not making it easy to understand what you're actually saying, or what's it you're interested in debating, beyond generic sneering.
What are you confused about? This is a standard question of regulation, and the standard objections are that regulation can harm innovation and present barriers to entry. I have welcomed any detailed discussion of these features, but have objected to hyperbolic versions of them, that any epsilon amount of regulation instantly kills innovation to zero, for example. Some folks have quadrupled down on this hyperbolic claim, and are now claiming that I am making a hyperbolic reverse claim - that regulation cannot possibly impact innovation in any way. This is a bullshit strawman.
That is the broad context of the discussion. I also observed some of the features of the culture war. I'm not sure what you're confused about.
There's no point in talking about the specific merits of the specific regulations, since doing so is like the old joke about the prostitute -- "we've established that, now we're just arguing over the price".
Once you've accepted that the government should be regulating this sort of thing your road to hell is paved and greased. The end state might look like aircraft where nothing actually new can be built because the regulatory barriers are too high, it might look like buildings which all have to be basically the same because the rules constrain the solutions overmuch, it might look like dishwashers and laundry where new things are forced to be less and less effective due to regulators' efficiency obsessions. It won't look like innovation. It's not that any epsilon amount of regulation instantly kills innovation to zero; it's that having the regulatory framework in the first place makes satisfying the regulations Job One, and that job tends to expand until it fills the space. Over time, not instantly. And it tends to drive out the kind of people who would do the innovation, because they hate all the box-checking, on top of hating all the constraints themselves.
Do you have a current complaint about the current regulation, or are you just complaining retroactively about California's regulation?
EDIT: It doesn't sound like you have a current complaint about the current regulation, because you say:
But I want to make sure I'm not strawmanning you. Thus, I'm just trying to confirm that the appropriate understanding of your argument is that everything was doomed (at least) four years ago, and that you have nothing more to add. I think it could have saved us lots of digital ink if you had just spoken plainly about this being your position in the beginning.
I don't think you know what "epsilon" means. "epsilon" means a small amount, often in a context where a bigger amount is possible. Making one regulation isn't going to cross over the epsilon threshhold, but it can be one step towards having lots of regulations which do.
Understood and agreed. We'd then have to shift to a discussion about the theory of slippery slopes and regulation dynamics. I don't think @The_Nybbler is open to that discussion yet. He thinks that "there's no point" in discussing anything like that; once we've crossed epsilon, all is doomed, and nothing can be saved. If he'd like to walk back that claim and actually have a detailed and reasonable discussion about what happens after we cross epsilon, I am here and waiting, but he has to agree to those terms rather than constantly immediately shifting back to claiming that once you cross epsilon, all is doomed and nothing can be saved.
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Your specific position. You've come in sneering at your perceived opponents, and when they respond you object that they got your position wrong. For example:
No they haven't. Why do others have to get your position 100% right, while you're allowed to caricature theirs freely?
Let's look at the tape.
The former person has at least walked it back to, "The debate is only on the magnitude of the effect.", and we have proceeded to have a more fruitful conversation since then. The latter obstinately refuses to make any more specific claims other than that the only thing you can do is to make it so that the industry "can't produce the new stuff any more". If they would like to walk this back from being in the land of hyperbole and into the land of reasoned argumentation, we'll be making some progress.
I'm confused, when you give link like this, aren't they supposed to prove your point, rather than disprove it? I don't see any claims of instantenous absolute killing of innovation. I could understand if you're being figurative here, but since you insist that your opponents get your position absolutely right when responding, I don't understand why you think it's fair for you to portray their claims in such a way.
And so do you. Normally when someone tries to have this sort of conversation in a productive manner, they tend to put forward some kind of framework for analyzing specific situations, so others can run it through various scenarios. I take you are in favor of some regulation, but not too much. How much is too much? Can we know in advance? Is there something we can do to prevent it from going too far? What can be done if it does? If you bothered answering any if these questions in advance, rather than strawmanning your opponents, and then complaining about being strawmanned, the conversation would be a lot more productive, probably.
We're having a nice conversation here about the regulation in question. That is a good way of having a discussion about having non-zero regulation, but hopefully not too much of it. One can argue that some of the specifics are, in fact, too much of it, but that's what that conversation looks like... not the mess the other guys are doing.
One could even go after a "framework for analyzing", even in slippery slope situations. Here's a good example of how to construct such a framework, and I think rich conversations could be had. In fact, it could even be beneficial to have a top-level comment that branches off from Volokh's work to have a nice robust discussion on how to construct an appropriate framework.
But they're still refusing to have any sort of framework, discuss any sort of specifics, nothing. Just that they have declared that the slope is slippery, and nothing more need (or can) be said. That is it. That once we have passed epsilon, we are on the slope, one cannot discuss frameworks anymore, and doom is upon us. This is not a strawman. This is a repeatedly stated position, stated openly, and resistant to any attempt to bring the discussion back to the type of thing that you would like.
As interesting as that conversation is, I don't see how it's relevant to my arguments.
And they're 100% correct to do so. Again, you opened with sneers, no framework of your own, and only vague hints at your own position. Much like you misrepresented your opponents views, while demanding they get yours exactly right, you seem to be demanding a higher standard then you're setting for yourself. I don't think it's a "mess the other guys are doing", you are a significant part of it.
I started by opening the conversation to a variety of perspectives on the issue at hand and an observation on the culture war component of it. I did not claim to endeavor to present a complete framework, nor has anyone even asked me to. When folks have wanted to have interesting discussions on particulars, I've engaged, and it's been fruitful. Full of details. Plenty of information about my position. I haven't even asked for a full and complete framework from anyone; even just a little attempt at talking about types of slippery slopes and such would be fine, but what I've gotten in return is literally on the level of, "Gay marriage, slippery slope, dog marriage, QED." Thinking that we can mayyyyybe do a tiny bit better than that in thinking about a framework for understanding slippery slopes is not a demand for a complete and total theory. It's a request to even try.
I never once misrepresented my opponents' views. They still explicitly claim that I represented them appropriately. Nor have I once demanded that they get mine exactly right. It is entirely a mess that they have created. Perhaps they viewed my observation of the culture war component as a sneer, got personally offended, and lost all capacity for rational argumentation, and I could be partially blamed for that. In that case, I would suggest that you focus on what part of my observation of the culture war component was wrong, for just because it was interpreted as a sneer and caused offense does not mean that was not true and necessary.
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