site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 11, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

7
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

In another post (which I'm too lazy to link to) I pondered about how to get something like this back up and running today. It's hard for a few reasons; 1) Hunting isn't at all "necessary" the way it was in societies past, so the social honor / social proof reward would be absent for some sort of rec-league hunting team 2) War is a contest of human-techno-logistical systems now and you need committed professionals. As much as I love my Marines, the "warrior spirit" can't help you against guided munitions 3) I can't actually bring myself to be okay with something on the order of 1-2 in 10 young men being permanently maimed / killed for no other reason than to help generally promote good society wide models of masculinity. The closest approximation I came up with is a re-worked National Guard program (male only) that would start at the end of High School with something like quarterly musters until the age of 50. So many legal / logistic problems with that and I don't know if it would actually result in much more than a federally subsidized "guns and bowling" league.

You left out 4) Men aren't allowed to have anything to themselves anymore, ever.

When I was a young man, I went to LAN parties with a bunch of other young men, and we formed intense bonds over deathmatches screaming every racially charged obscenity we could imagine. We tooled out our rigs, lots of us began learning to program or mod games, etc. This all happened in the safety of a basement, largely without internet except in the few houses that had big fancy broadband, and nobody was ever hurt.

Sure, it's not the most traditional of male bonding/rights of passage, but I think it worked, after a fashion, for us.

All this is now verboten. All games have some random fucking girlboss lecturing you about your privilege. There are no more offline servers. All behavior is closely monitored and you get suspended. Mods get you banned. It's the worst fucking dystopia I could have ever imagined being a 90's PC gamer.

I moved over to boardgames in the mid 00's, to continue to bond and compete as a slightly older adult male with my other adult male friends. Sometimes things got heated with our elevated testosterone and trying to find our place in the world. One time I almost came to blows with a guy after he got insanely drunk and made a bunch of outlandish accusations. A few years later I was best man at his wedding.

All this is now verboten. Less controllable, granted. But the last time I was in my old FLGS they almost kicked a guy out of the store for saying, in character, that he'd kill another player in a tabletop war game. Came down on him like a brick of shit, shouting "IF I EVER HEAR THAT LANGUAGE AGAIN YOU WILL BE PERMANENTLY BANNED FROM THE STORE!" Both players were absolutely shocked. They thought it was just banter.

Over the years, for some reason, that store went from staffing men approaching middle age who'd been gaming from before puberty, to a bunch of blue haired high school girls who routinely sneered at my purchases of GMT Games. I cannot comprehend the shift. I stopped going there.

And so it goes with literally every single thing too many men enjoy and bond over. It must be made terminally inclusive, so that women can participate and not have their feelings hurt. Which completely ruins it as a male bonding space. And so there will never be one again ever. At least not in the "free" world.

It's a pretty common occurrence nowadays in mixed-sex online spaces when discussing the "Women Are Wonderful" effect and female in-group preferences.

The women will often lean-in to merited impossibility, claiming something to the tune of "Female in-group preferences are not a thing and just a misogynistic myth. But if they are a real thing, it's only because women, with our greater empathy and propensity for emotional labor, are better at starting and maintaining support networks and social groups. If you don't like it, build your own support networks and social groups."

Yet, countless male support networks and social groups have been infiltrated and canceled. When men do build their own support networks and social groups, such women will recoil "wait... no! Not like that!" and be immediately screaming at the door to get in and/or trying to get such networks and groups canceled, claiming that such venues are but old-boys'-clubs and hotbeds of supposed misogyny and other types of crime-think.

Yes to everything you wrote. I don't really play video games anymore, but I really miss lan parties with the bros back in the day. "barcades" are just not the same.

And so it goes with literally every single thing too many men enjoy and bond over. It must be made terminally inclusive, so that women can participate and not have their feelings hurt. Which completely ruins it as a male bonding space. And so there will never be one again ever. At least not in the "free" world.

Yeah. And even when you do have a male bonding space, everyone is so used to being around women that they're still, I think, keeping themselves in check so that they won't say something bad that gets them reported. And some guys will report them, "calling out the misogyny" or whatever they're supposed to do. It's crazy! There's also a feeling, I think, that they've done something wrong if they throw a social event and only men show up. Like, clearly that complex tabletop war game "should" attract an equal number of women, so they must be doing something wrong if only guys show up, and they should be made to feel shame for that.

None of this is a problem in actually competitive games like CS or Dota.

I disagree very strongly actually. CS2 and Dota2 are great examples of how exactly multiplayer went wrong. 20 years ago, there was no MMR system punishing you for getting better at the game, there was very little (if any) moderation and most people played with small groups of friends.
Whereas now? You go play dota, here are some random people who will flame you for not magically knowing the game. You will probably never see any of them ever again so you don't have any motivation to behave with kindness towards them either. You worked hard, learned the game and got better? Well now your MMR is higher, which means the people in your games are even sweatier tryhards, even angrier at the game. And you'll have to work even harder if you want to keep winning. This will continue until you burnout and stop playing or become the #1 top player on the planet (hope you don't mind playing for tens of thousands of hours because that's what it takes).

I agree with all of this. Maybe it's just age, but it's amazing how much nostalgia I have for old battle.net. Not so much the games themselves, but the whole system. (And yes I can technically still use it but it's nothing without the whole community)

One thing I'd add is that having such a finely tuned MMR system puts a weird stress on the game, by getting me an opponent of exactly my level (unless he's smurfing). If I want to try something new, play a new map for the first time, or just relax a little, I'll lose. To win, I have to be 100% pushing at max effort the entire time. And either way, it effects my "score."

Games used to be... well, games. Now they're just sports in a different package.

What stops you from playing with your small group of friends now?

What's "punishing" about having to play with better players as you become a better player? Is it your desire to instead stomp lobbies 1v5 (or 1v9 if your teammates are bad enough)? Unfortunately, that would likely not be the desire of 5-9 people playing against you.

What stops you from playing with your small group of friends now?

It's really, really hard! If you'll allow me to put on my tinfoil hat, I almost feel like publishers are intentionally making it hard. We went from "just download this torrent and install hamachi" to "you have to buy this game, install all 100GBs of it, make sure it's the correct version, you have to play it through steam or similar, the servers might brick at any point. And games are just not made for small groups of friends anymore. Compare Heroes of Might and Magic 3 or Age of Empires 2 or Diablo 2 or even Dota 1 to any of the million Call of Duty Clones, which are blatantly made so you'll click "soloqueue". A lot of the time there isn't even an option for party play. If there is, you might have to wait 30min or longer because the game forces groups of players to only play against other groups of players. Oh, and there's censorship, of course. Even innocent, casual-friendly games like Minecraft have to make sure you can't say any naughty words anymore.

What's "punishing" about having to play with better players as you become a better player? Is it your desire to instead stomp lobbies 1v5 (or 1v9 if your teammates are bad enough)?

Honestly? Yeah, I do want to stomp newbies. As long as it takes me dozens of hours to learn a game or map, I should be rewarded with a vastly increased win chance. Otherwise, what's the point? Why am I learning and trying to get better if the game will just become harder and harder up until I give up? This is just the Moloch problem again, btw.

Unfortunately, that would likely not be the desire of 5-9 people playing against you.

There's nothing stopping them from playing for a few dozen hours, getting better at the game and stomping newbies too. This is how WC3 works and it's great. This is how the natural world and evolution work too.

It's really, really hard! If you'll allow me to put on my tinfoil hat, I almost feel like publishers are intentionally making it hard.

Dota 2 and CS have party play, last time I checked.

If there is, you might have to wait 30min or longer because the game forces groups of players to only play against other groups of players.

Then find 5 more people to lobby with? Was it quicker than 30 minutes to go to your local LAN club back in the day so you could play within your own small community?

Oh, and there's censorship, of course. Even innocent, casual-friendly games like Minecraft have to make sure you can't say any naughty words anymore.

Presumably you have your own voice chat app so you don't have to speak ingame at all.

Honestly? Yeah, I do want to stomp newbies. As long as it takes me dozens of hours to learn a game or map, I should be rewarded with a vastly increased win chance. Otherwise, what's the point? Why am I learning and trying to get better if the game will just become harder and harder up until I give up? This is just the Moloch problem again, btw.

You have the choice to find a group of noob friends who don't mind getting stomped. That's how any even slightly organized competition works. You want to have fun? So does everyone else. Want to have easy fun? Play vs. bots. You don't want sweaty tryhards? Don't be sweaty and sink to the rating where people who don't try as hard are. Or, again, find likeminded people. Moloch is about sweatier systems outcompeting unsweatier ones, but I don't see how public queue is "outcompeting" premades, except in games that don't have premades in the first place (and CS/Dota 2 do).

"Game gets harder as I get better" is a selling point for many, many people in many, many games, it shouldn't be unfathomable to you.

There's nothing stopping them from playing for a few dozen hours, getting better at the game and stomping newbies too. This is how WC3 works and it's great. This is how the natural world and evolution work too.

It's not fun unless you're a complete masochist, and even you don't seem to be a masochist. Instead you seem to think that newbies don't deserve fun. While also thinking that the game shouldn't be sweaty.

Also, in nature and evolution you don't get better, you just eat shit and die if you're bad. You want to appeal to evolution? The MMR model of gaming flooded out your preferred model of gaming because it's more appealing. Therefore, it's better. That's evolution for you.

I think that's a mixture of inertia, popularity among non-Western audiences (CS is probably second only to soccer among European and LatAm pastimes, and the Russian playerbase of Dota 2 is infamous), and the sort of "purity" of those games as contests of skill. Girls are probably more likely to play Overwatch, Valorant, or League.

You can't police CS or Dota as well as a loxal game store.

All this is now verboten. All games have some random fucking girlboss lecturing you about your privilege. There are no more offline servers. All behavior is closely monitored and you get suspended. Mods get you banned. It's the worst fucking dystopia I could have ever imagined being a 90's PC gamer.

I am a white man who games fairly regularly and I have never had a lecture about my privilege, nor have I been banned.

I'm also sad about the death of LAN parties, but it feels very weird to complain that social norms (and their enforcement) on non-LAN servers are not the same as on LAN servers. On a LAN server the enforcement comes from your friends, but external enforcement is absolutely required for public servers. Rule enforcement means that League of Legends today is much more enjoyable today than it was in 2012 (because there is less flaming and intentional feeding), and definitely better than if there was no enforcement at all.

Yes, lament the death of LAN servers, but try to appreciate that a tyranny under social-defectors is not actually better than tyranny under a company preventing that defection. Ultimately public servers are common spaces, while your basement is private.

There are no more offline servers.

As someone with zero knowledge on this entire subject, I'm asking: what happened? Were they banned, literally or practically?

Developers stopped supporting them with the rise of various matchmaking and digital delivery services. Requiring you to be online also ensures that everyone playing has purchased a license for the game.

LAN parties became uneconomical once high speed internet meant that you didn't have to lug your PC around to frag with decent ping.

At the same time, game publishers started to remove the ability to host your own servers to crack down on piracy and the secondary market.

The infamously ineffective boycott of MW2 in 2009 was about this specific grievance. And we never really got this back in AAA games.

These days the fashion is to build games as "live services" which means every game is inherently tied to publisher servers (and moderation) the way only MMOs used to be back in the day.

It drives me crazy that people don't have enough backbone to actually follow through on stuff like that. I didn't purchase MW2 because of the lack of dedicated servers, and the price increase. I wanted to play it just like everyone else but I wasn't going to give them my money. It honestly wasn't that hard. And yet boycotts like this are always full of examples of people who don't have a modicum of self control to refrain from CONSOOMing for a short while.

I don't think it's a lack of backbone, I think it's a lack of knowledge. How many people read online forums, how many were even aware there was a boycott happening?
(I read quite a lot of gaming forums and this is the first I'm hearing of it)

In the MW2 case it was lack of backbone for sure. The reason that boycott is such a joke in particular is that the day the game came out, someone took a screenshot showing that most people in the "boycott MW2" steam group had bought the game and were playing it. So, despite joining a group trying to organize a boycott, they didn't actually refrain from purchasing.

I was curious about how bad it is. I tried looking up games on steam to see if there was any sort of LAN functionality tag. Can't find one. There is "Massively Multiplayer", "Local Multiplayer" which I think is hotseat and mostly seems to be fighting games or coup co-op.

I found this curator which looks like a list of games with LAN support. It's... ok I guess. It's not completely empty. Apparently Baldur's Gate 3 supports LAN play, and Stardew Valley, Total War: Warhammer III. A bunch of remakes like Halo: The Master Chief Collection and Age of Empires Definitive Editions. Borderlands 3 apparently supports LAN play which surprises me.

But it's not nearly as robust as I would like. Virtually 100% of multiplayer games supported LAN play and private servers once upon a time.