This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Donald Trump will be 82 years old in 2028 and Joe Biden will be 86 years old, assuming that they are both still alive by then. For comparison’s sake, Leonid Brezhnev died in office as General Secretary of the USSR Communist Party at age 75. His successor, Yuri Andropov, died at age 69. He was followed in the 1980s by Constantin Chernenko who died in office at age 73.
Some historians argue that the Soviet’s gerontocracy contributed to that country’s demise, as older, risk-averse leaders left their nations brittle and unprepared for change. The trend of elderly leaders changed, as you all know, with Mikhail Gorbachev (aged 54 when he took office in 1985), youthful by comparison. He was the first such leader to actually grow up his whole life in the USSR. He was a true believer, having been a party functionary since his youth. He genuinely believed that his proposals—perestroika and glasnost—would strengthen the state for years to come. He reflected the naive mindset that bought the Helsinki Accords hook, line, and sinker.
I don’t think it’s a stretch to compare those Accords with modern-day Wokism currently afflicting Western European culture. The older generation of leaders will roll their eyes. But they signed on to it. The next batch of younger idealist leaders—the Gorbachevs of our future—will take Wokism seriously to the detriment of our national integrity.
Expect woke-sympathetic Western leaders to act with indecision (or even create the groundwork for a national fracturing) when racial unrest in our new multi-racial societies boils over. Our future leaders will be expected to cash the checks that today’s elderly statesmen are writing. Joe Biden and Donald Trump will be long gone, but the culture of wokism will linger with us for a generation to come.
The US hasn't been even close to monoracial for a very long time. About 17% of Americans in the 19th century were black.
But very unevenly distributed, such that in fact huge portions of the country were monoracial or close enough to count.
True. And for those areas that weren't, there was relatively little racial mixing going on. Even among whites, denominational distinctions segregated society in ways that are very unfamiliar to modern Americans.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I think the complaints about gerontocracy by left, centrist, and right-leaning people are more a picture of some odd timing than a long-term issue that people try to pretend it is.
In the House, it's already fixed itself. Jefferies is the leader of the Democrat's, and Mike Johnson is the Speaker, and even if he gets knifed, another normal-aged Republican will replace him, eventually. Before that, Pelosi only lasted as long as she did, because her preferred successor got beaten in a primary by AOC, and it was thought she was the only one who could keep the House majority together, and her new preferred successor needed some seasoning.
In the Senate, McConnell's stepping down after his term is over, and Schumer likely will pretty soon as well.
Biden only ran in 2020, because he thought he was the only one who could defeat Trump, and thought the same in 2024.
In 2028, on the GOP side, there will either be Trump, or a bunch of Republican leaders of normal politician age - DeSantis, Noem, Cruz, Vance, Stefanik, et all.
Same thing on the Democratic side - Bernie isn't running again, but Newsom, Whitmer, Pritzker, Kamala, maybe AOC, etc.
Again, have your own personal views on all those people, but their all within standard issue politician age ranges.
More options
Context Copy link
I don't get the age obsession , or why this is that miraculous or surprising. People living a long time these days. Good genes , modern healthcare, a 'purpose-driven life' all help. Buffett, Munger, Kissinger...lots of people who were/are fully productive in their 90s or even 100s just before death. Contrary to Richard Hanania, I want to see more old people in politics and positions of power, if only because that gives hope for the rest of us. Age cutoffs, or ageism overall, just means shooting yourself in the foot as you approach that cutoff. It's giving yourself fewer options. Reagan and Trump, despite advanced age ,took active ownership or control of their presidencies, similar to Clinton or Obama.
Also, it helps unleash more human capital. The notion that old people in power crowd out young people is similar to the 'lump of labor' argument that technology destroys jobs--yes it destroys some jobs but has a net-positive effect of more jobs. Unlocking more human capital, and prolonging the productive lifespan of humans, means more economic growth and jobs overall. There are some edge cases like tenure, in which unproductive staff stay too long. But this is endemic with the tenure system and can be fixed with a more meritocratic or results-focused system.
I think the issue is one of being so behind the times that they can’t really grasp the issues that will come with increasing technology. 80 years ago, computers were rare devices that most ordinary people wouldn’t be using. The internet itself was unknown to most until 35 years ago. I’m not really sure I want someone who would have trouble setting up a home router making internet policy or other technology policies because they don’t understand how this stuff works.
I am not certain the comparison is favorable to young people. Let's imagine your average 70-80 year old who started their corporate career in their twenties: born in 1954-1944, started their career in 1974-1964, retired at 65 in 2019-2009. During their career nearly all job that involved paperwork got electrified and then computerized: they have seen electro-mechanical typewriters, teleprinters, faxes, calculators, sevral generations of copying machines and printers, DOS, pagers, MS-DOS, email, web during the dot-com boom, dumb phones, remembered several phone numbers, and used all major popular versions of Windows and Office and Excel until Windows XP (possibly Windows Vista, 7, 8, even 10 depending if we are talking about average 60-70 years who retired in early or late 2010s). And that is a median office worker. During their free time, they have bought analog TVs, read magazines and newspapers that had be bought and distributed by mail, sent mail by themselves, visited library that had physical card catalogue system that got computerized several times over, switched their sound system from vinyls to cassettes to CDs to (maybe) MP3s, bought a car that didn't refuse to start because of a failed firmware update, and when driving that car, navigated with paper map instead of spoon-fed directions, and quite likely tried to set up VCR at least once.
Uncharitably, the average 20 year old is more used to touchscreens than keyboards, does not know what is "file path", possibly not even what is a "file"; is lost if the document they need is not listed in the Word "recently opened", or is asked to install software not in app store.
More importantly, I believe the 20 year olds are much more susceptible to "fish don't know about water" myopia than the grandpa who remembers who things used to be. Assuming the grandpa is not demented.
Granted, the optimal person probably is someone 50-60 year old (they probably actually set up that VCR most often).
ETA: The point about VCRs is that it was more complex thing than any router setup I have done in the past 5 years.
More options
Context Copy link
That's the issue with someone who's 70. When we start hitting 80 it's a fear of cognitive decline. Same reason they have to take more regular driving tests, improved modern healthcare or no.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
The problem I have in the modern era is that the 65~ retirement age is being preserved for the boomers as a legacy of an age where you worked with your hands and died 5-10 years after retiring. Without generating anywhere near the amount of expense and medical drama that somebody in the last few years can and will these days.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
How many of these guys where alcoholics/smokers?
2/3. Brezhnev was sodden and had developed a massive tolerance for alcohol. Andropov was fairly sober, as far as I know, but he did die of kidney problems and as a KGB-adjacent man he would be very good at having embarassing details hidden. Chernenko's most notable achievement was that he was the only one who could outdrink Brezhnev and was a good drinking buddy for him; thorough years of heavy drinking in his native Siberian winters, Chernenko seems to have developed such a tolerance (and almost constant state of being mildly tipsy) that he was apparently never visibly drunk. Chernenko was also a heavy smoker, which led to his death from emphysema.
More options
Context Copy link
Added to that, how much better is gerontology in the 2020s than in the 80s?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link