site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   30042 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

7
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Is there a reason you choose to use the pronoun she for a male pedophile?

Mod intervention!

It's totally fine to express disagreement with the general concept of trans. It is less fine to make statements that flat-out imply trans is a thing. Not everyone agrees they're "male", and I think this falls under the whole building consensus rule.

Presumably because there's no reason to let one's disgust with a pedophile inform as to whether they are actually trans.

My read is that joyful isn’t saying this person isn’t really “trans” but that trans people are just role playing in their chosen sex. I agree. Sarah is a male even if he calls himself a female. Just like how an 80 pound girl isn’t fat even if she starves herself because she sees herself as fat. Objective reality trumps personal identification.

I'm not entirely sure that's the reasoning behind the original comment. This site has quite a few people who seem unwilling or outright incapable of speaking about trans people without words or a tone of deep disgust. Note that joyful didn't say "Why do you use the pronoun she for a male?", but rather "why do you use the pronoun she for a male pedophile?" This should increase the likelihood of this being a disgust response in our eyes.

But even we granted that this is just about objective reality, it wouldn't have an impact on pronoun policy. There is no inconsistency between your view and the idea that one should respect the pronouns of others.

One of the ways in which sex differences are real and important is in regards to paedophilia. Male paedophilia is a much bigger problem than female paedophilia in terms of both how prevalent it is and in terms of how harmful it is. Using female pronouns for a male paedophile rhetorically downplays the seriousness of the situation.

Language comes with connotations, which are neither explicit nor objectively necessary inferences. Nonetheless spreading those connotations and that framing is the first step in winning a broader argument, which is why you get so many fights over what language to use.

Using female pronouns for a male paedophile rhetorically downplays the seriousness of the situation.

I don't agree. I think that at least nominally, pro-pronoun people would consider it serious regardless of the pedophile's sex. Obviously, there are the usual caveats (humans can think one thing and feel another, etc.).

pro-pronoun people would consider it serious regardless of the pedophile's sex

Maybe so, but when the average person hears "Sarah is a paedophile - she has openly admitted to a sexual interest in children", they make a number of reasonable assumptions:

  1. It is impossible for Sarah to penetrate a child with a sexual organ.
  2. It is impossible for Sarah to impregnate a pubescent child.
  3. It is effectively impossible for Sarah to transmit a sexually transmitted infection to a child.
  4. While Sarah will be able to physically overpower a prepubescent child or a pubescent female, she will have a much harder time physically overpowering a pubescent male.

These assumptions are true of female paedophiles. These assumptions may not be (likely are not) true of Sarah Nyberg.

Until the average person has fully internalised the idea that the pronouns a given person uses are wholly uncorrelated with their sex, affirming Nyberg's transgender identity carries with it the unavoidable side effect of downplaying the risk Nyberg poses to young children in the mind of the average listener. It's undeniably true that an adult female molesting a small girl is bound to be deeply distressing for the victim, but there's still a vast qualitative difference between that scenario and the scenario in which an adult male physically overpowers a small girl, penetrates her with his penis, infects her with an STD and possibly impregnates her.

but there's still a vast qualitative difference between that scenario and the scenario in which an adult male physically overpowers a small girl, penetrates her with his penis, infects her with an STD and possibly impregnates her.

I concur, but this sounds to me like an attempt to ensure Nyberg isn't allowed to escape the instinctive feelings associated with male pedophiles. Which is a goal you have to actually declare, otherwise I'm going to assume you don't think people's feelings should decide how pedos of either sex are treated.

I concur, but this sounds to me like an attempt to ensure Nyberg isn't allowed to escape the instinctive feelings associated with male pedophiles.

In an extremely literal reading of this statement, it's trivially true: Nyberg is a male (i.e. biologically sexed male) paedophile, and it is appropriate to treat Nyberg the same way any other member of that group would be treated owing to their membership within.

I'm not really talking about "feelings" so much as risk calculus. All other things being equal, parents are right to be more distrustful of a male stranger than a female, both in terms of probability (how likely is a male stranger to sexually assault my child compared to a female stranger?) and impact (in the event that a male stranger sexually assaults my child, how much harm can they do to them/are they likely to do to them?). It would be profoundly unwise for a parent to leave their children alone with any self-declared paedophile regardless of sex, but it's a simple factual assertion that male paedophiles are more likely to act on their urges than female, and can cause far more harm (quantitatively and qualitatively) than female paedophiles. No child in human history has been impregnated by a female paedophile, and the number of children who have contracted sexually transmitted infections as a result of being abused by female paedophiles must be vanishingly small, if not literally zero. Even though female paedophiles are just as capable of severely injuring or killing prepubescent children as are male paedophiles, I feel extremely confident in asserting that the number of children severely injured or killed as a result of being assaulted by a female paedophile is a fraction of the equivalent number for male paedophiles. In some kind of weird trolley problem situation in which a parent is forced to leave their pubescent female child alone with one of two paedophiles, and the only thing the parent knew about the paedophiles in question is that one is male and the other is female, leaving the child with the female paedophile would be the rational choice.

If I knew for a fact that Nyberg had undergone gender reassignment surgery and no longer had a functioning penis and testicles, I think it would be appropriate to treat Nyberg with the same contempt and wariness afforded female paedophiles (which is still a distinctly lower amount of contempt and wariness than that afforded to male) - being bereft of male reproductive organs significantly (but not entirely) changes the risk calculus. If Nyberg has not undergone gender reassignment surgery, then the risk calculus for Nyberg is the same as for any other male paedophile, and Nyberg's declared gender identity is an irrelevant fact about her which doesn't factor into the risk calculus at all (any more than Nyberg's taste in music or preference for strawberries over blueberries would). If someone presented me with very strong evidence that the offending patterns for trans women were more similar to cis women than cis men, that might persuade me to adjust my risk calculus regardless of whether Nyberg had medically transitioned or not - however, all evidence I've seen to date has demonstrated the opposite, that trans people commit criminal offenses at the rate we would expect based on their natal sex.

otherwise I'm going to assume you don't think people's feelings should decide how pedos of either sex are treated.

I'm not really sure what this means. Treated by whom? By the state? By the courts?

There’s a principle here of never letting a liar define the terms, and never letting a bad guy have an inch of ground lest he take a mile. There’s a heavily tribal “scissor statement” embedded in attempting to describe the situation, and Joyful’s question may be a disgust response to the concept of transgenderism-as-divisive-social-lie as much as to transgenderism-as-ugly-behavior.

Having said that, I’m personally fine with the OP having described this Sarah Nyberg pedophile consistently with the child-luster’s pronouns of identification. I don’t need to know the “deadname” of the kid-unsafe transwoman or be constantly reminded of fundamental lies via the narrator’s pronoun choice. The post is all about the tribal lines and about one side protecting a dress which hides an erection for little girls; I don’t need to see a humiliation ritual of that dress being verbally ripped off in every sentence.

The reason for the choice of pronoun is obvious: That's the pronoun Sarah would want us to use. If you have a point to make, speak it plainly rather than asking stupid rhetorical questions.

Should you use the pronoun Sarah wants you to use or the pronoun for the gender you think Sarah is? If Sarah isn't in the conversation, does Sarah's preference even matter? Is there a "correct" language? Or is a word's correctness judged only on whether it facilitates a common understanding between speaker and listener? You obviously understood who all those "she"s and "her"s referred to, but would "he" and "his" have been a marginally easier read for you and other Motte readers?

I honestly don't know anymore.

If they were "he" at the time of the offense, I think that should be used. I don't think "Angelique raped six women over ten years and one of her victims described how she forced her penis into her mouth" is either clear or accurate, when Angelique was still going by "Ed" at the time.

I’d like to suggest that for historical explanations we use their pronouns at the time, then change after the transition comes in the story.

I'm not sure we've ever actually had to enforce this, but the official policy with Motte pronouns is:

  • You are always allowed to use the person in question's preferred pronoun.
  • You are always allowed to use "they", regardless of whether the person accepts that or not.
  • You are always allowed to twist yourself in knots to avoid pronouns even if it looks really silly.
  • If you're doing something historical, you can also use the person in question's officially preferred pronouns at that time in the story, but don't cleverly split hairs on this one; if you write a story about the Wachowskis, and start out by referring to them as "he", but then switch to "they" when they transition, the Eye of Sauron may look down upon thee.

The good news about these policies is that everyone finds them slightly uncomfortable, which is probably about as good as we can get.

I think this is extremely silly and enshrines into the rules the disputed premises of one side of the culture war (i.e., that pronouns refer to self-described gender and not sex). I think that's quite uncharacteristic of The Motte. Why not just let people use whatever pronouns they want to use for other people, and if there's confusion then other users can ask for clarification?

Because people tend to use these things as a way to reinforce their beliefs and make it a hostile environment for others.

I think this falls generally under the "don't be antagonistic", "don't enforce ideological conformity", and "provide evidence in proportion to how partisan your claim is" clauses.

Aside from pronouns, does this rule apply to qualifiers as well?

Should commenters be modded for referring to Hamas as terrorists instead of the self-identified 'islamic resistance movement'? Using 'incel shooter' instead of 'supreme gentleman'?

The general antagonism clause applies as it always does, as do a bunch of adjacent rules. No individual word is banned, no individual word makes you exempt from the rest of the rules.

I could write both bannable and perfectly-fine comments with any of those above phrases. If you want to come up with a more specific example, I can tell you how I'd judge it.

Some might argue that not being allowed to use the pronouns we think accurately apply to someone is enforcing ideological conformity.

As I said, "everyone finds them slightly uncomfortable". I'll take that over "one side is perfectly happy with it and the other side is not happy at all".

Unless I'm misunderstanding, "You must adhere to progressive orthodoxy on pronouns or avoid them altogether" does not sound to me like the middle compromise position you're making it out to be.

Not that you should particularly care what I think, but I will say: in all my years here, I've never until now been surprised or disappointed by your decisions pertaining to the rules and administration of this community. Hell, I'm not even sure I've seen a modhat decision by you that I've disagreed with. You've always had an uncanny ability to impartially administrate and to advocate the sort of truly neutral principles that are essential to the flourishing of a community like this. And I'm not at all saying this take of your ruins all that.

I hope, for my unblemished account's sake, that some story about a trans person doesn't become the culture war topic du jour any time soon. I also think that you'd see immense pushback from the community if those rules you propose were actually enforced. I suspect people just haven't read your comment above because it's buried in the previous week's culture war roundup thread.

More comments

If you're doing something historical, you can also use the person in question's officially preferred pronouns at that time in the story, but don't cleverly split hairs on this one; if you write a story about the Wachowskis, and start out by referring to them as "he", but then switch to "they" when they transition, the Eye of Sauron may look down upon thee.

This is confusing to me. Is the issue that the Wachowski sisters do not use the pronoun "they", but they did use "he" at one point?

It's to prevent people from maliciously using "he" by slipping in a historical sentence. You can write a post about the pre-transition history of the Wachowski's and only use "he", you can write a post about their entire history and use "he" for the pre- section and "she" for the post- section, or "they" for the entire history, but you cannot write a post where you use "he" for the pre-transition part, and "they" for the post-transition part.

Yup, exactly.

(You could also use "she" for the entire history if you wanted.)

How can this be malicous? If one talks about what the directors of Matrix are up to today, mod-approved options "her" or "they" if one didn't use "he" to refer to them when they identified as men. The latter exception seems absurd.

It can be malicious if I think to myself "haha, using 'he' will trigger the trannies, so I will slip in a historical sentences to have an excuse to use 'he', and use 'they' otherwise to stay one the good side of the rules".

The rule also hits legitimate uses, but it's a compromise, that's inevitable.

A post which interlaces events when a person was a different gender that they are today, would seem disjointed.

It is in no way a compromise, self-identification as the only criterion which determines which pronouns are OK in the opinion of mods is the the trans activist position, not a neutral one. Only the most radical trans activist would object to the rules Zorba posted, a person who demands their favourite pronouns are used, not merely that disfavoured ones are avoided.

More comments

This needs to go to the sidebar, I think. I wasn't aware there's an official policy.

I'm honestly trying to figure out what to do with the sidebar; right now it's kinda just overly cluttered, and I'd like to slim it down. But I'm not sure how.

I've refrained from putting this up just because it doesn't come up often and doesn't seem worth the clutter right now.

Gah! You really split the baby on that one. I think it's worse.

I have independently thought that is the best way.

Bruce Jenner won his gold medal in 1976. The identity known as Caitlyn Jenner didn't exist (at all probably, and certainly not publicly). So it's simply wrong to say Caitlyn Jenner won her gold medal in a men's Olympic event in 1976.

If people are capable of fundamentally changing their identity, then we should refer to their current identity now and their previous identity(ies) when speaking in the past tense in which the previous identity(ies) was(were) acting.

How so? That’s how I’ve always referred to my trans cousin since they’ve come out. It seems the most intuitive way to speak about things to me. What’s your issue with it?

Would you use differently-gendered pronouns to refer to the same person in the same sentence?

“She sold her car for more than he bought it for, due to the pandemic supply chain disruptions.”

Sounds like utter madness to me.

My facetious proposal: respect the pronouns of well-behaved trans people, but disrespect the pronouns of those credibly accused of bad behaviour. On the theory that respecting pronouns is a thing done as a courtesy to your fellow human beings, but only extended to those who act courteously to others.

So Sam Brinton is born a He, gets to become a They by choice, but then as soon as he steals some lady's luggage he automatically reverts to a He again.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats