naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
(text post)
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
It’s definitely not almost zero chance. There is a ton of antisemitism going around. You can’t just forgive everyone for being a dumb kid who did antisemitism by accident. Someone is pulling the strings.
And Greta is fairly high up decision maker in this food chain. Now perhaps she’s all manipulated by her parents but at some point the people calling for let’s kill the Jews need to be believed and are actually advocating for what they are saying.
I fail to understand how you just accidentally use a Jewish dog whistle while also fairly directly calling for Jewish genocide.
Either that or Americas left is just the global useful idiot. Hamas does literally mean drive them into the sea till they drown and the Gretas are always supporting those types.
She’s almost 21 now. At some point your not dumb kid and you just don’t accidentally do genocide promotion.
Southkraut
A tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.
sliders1234 1yr ago
Relax man. My wife bought the same plushie - the octopus that can be flipped inside-out to show a smiling or frowning face - a few years ago because she thought it was a funny way to clarify her mood, i.e., actually angry or just hormonally incapable of expressing anything other than grumpiness.
So I for one actually buy the neurodivergent-people-excuse. And not for love of that meaningless term.
I would contest that probability. From my understanding, there is no confirmed case of a plush octopus used to signal antisemitism.
Basically anything can be a dog whistle. If there was a pound note or anything related to money in the background, they would claim that it was related to claims that the Jews controlled global finance. If it was a plush wolf, people would point out that the Nazis named lot of things after wolves. If it was a German Shepard plushy, that is obviously a reference to Hitler's dog. A goblin is /obviously/ just a stereotype of a Jewish person, so a Harry Potter book would be Problematic. Gas stoves are dog whistles for pro Holocaust positions. The signs in the photo were not written in Fraktur, just like the Nazis got rid of Fraktur. They are also written in English, a Germanic (!) language. Of course, England expelled the Jews at some point, so this is a clear call for the Jews to be expelled from both the UK and Israel. Any visible number which contains the digit sequence 18 or 88 is also antisemitic.
If Greta had placed her plushy on a globe, then I would concede that there is a significant probability that this is meant as a homage to Nazi caricatures. As it is, the octopus is the most unobjectionable part of the picture.
Please don't abuse the phrasing "listen to what people say" when you actually mean "speculate what people mean". The entire point of "take them at their word" is to take them at their literal word. If you want to use this phrase, please link a video of Greta Thunberg literally advocating Jewish genocide in those exact terms.
I find it extremely unlikely that the octopus carries any of the significance you’re attributing to it. In addition, she’s “tell[ing] you they support killing Jews” in the same sense that one of your opponents might say that people who say “I stand with Israel” or whatever are directly telling you they’re ok with apartheid and bombing children. The argument is silly no matter who uses it.
Disclaimer: I don’t care about Thunberg in general, and am annoyed to he placed in the position of defending a professional activist. Hamas and mass civilian massacres are terrible.
The debate is better when people admit what they actually mean.
As far as Gaza goes I support an apartheid state and bombing children in Gaza as collateral damage of hitting military targets. We should admit that Free Palestine actually means - Genocide of Jews.
Southkraut
A tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.
sliders1234 1yr ago
The debate is better when people admit what they actually mean.
FWIF I don't have a dog in the Israeli-Palestinian fight (though I suppose I'm indirectly connected to one side, but not sufficiently to make me care). I'm just pro-squid.
I doubt that particular person in the photo supports genociding Jews. She likely supports changes in the status quo that could plausibly end with violent ethnic cleansing of Jews from the area (I think it would lead to a civil war, and who would win would depend heavily on contingent things that happened in the interim), but she probably also doesn’t believe that’s the case.
The most charitable take is wanton negligence and being a useful idiot.
We literally just saw 1500 Israeli civilians killed. In the most brutal fashion possible.
This would be like being a member of the Oakland Raiders. You just saw Henry Ruggs get obliterated and drive 150 mph and kill someone. You then do the same action the next day. There are charitable takes and on Oct 5 it could be understood not to understand what they mean. But when you do the same behavior the next day that led to loss of life well you don’t have an excuse to be that dumb anymore.
There is a point where both sidism fails and at the motte we don’t need to take every viewpoint as being rational. You should update your beliefs when you watch concert goers machined gun and mothers babies cut out if their stomache and beheaded.
If you are going to back genocide of the Jews then defend genocide of the Jews.
It’s definitely not almost zero chance. There is a ton of antisemitism going around. You can’t just forgive everyone for being a dumb kid who did antisemitism by accident. Someone is pulling the strings.
There's zero chance that this was an antisemitic dogwhistle. Greta is an individual whose political inclinations and beliefs have been broadcast all over the world and none of them line up with antisemitism. I don't think you understand politics well at all if you think that left-wing opposition to Israel is motivated by antisemitism. The limit of her antisemitism is owning an innocuous plush octopus toy. Nobody is "pulling the strings" to make a slightly autistic (not an insult, she has claimed this about herself) young girl buy a small plush toy. Children routinely purchase stuffed toys all over the world.
And Greta is fairly high up decision maker in this food chain.
Greta has no decision-making authority beyond her own personal statements. She is not some big leader - she was a symbol because she expressed political motivations at an extremely young age. She isn't some well respected guru or thought leader, she's simply a prominent activist. Do you really, seriously think that she'd have any influence at all if she decided to come out publicly and say "Hey everyone, I just saw a really well made /pol/ infographic, turns out I was wrong and the nazis were right - gas the jews now!"?
I fail to understand how you just accidentally use a Jewish dog whistle
The plush toy of an octopus is not an antisemitic dogwhistle, it is a small toy purchased by a child. 4chan has been breaking new ground in discovering and developing new antisemitic dogwhistles (like the OK hand sign and drinking milk) but not even they have managed to get to the point of calling CHILDREN BUYING SMALL PLUSH TOYS the new sign that they're antisemites who are already goose-stepping and heiling Hitler in their heart of hearts. This is utterly paranoid conspiracy-theory thinking that sees vast amounts of meaning in incredibly inconsequential acts.
directly calling for Jewish genocide.
Huh? Where did Greta do that? Can you show me the example of her talking about how Hitler was right and the jews need to be gassed? The sign she was actually holding in reality said "STAND WITH GAZA" - and there's actually a big difference between saying "I stand with Gaza" as opposed to "All the filthy juden need to be exterminated". Remember, people on the left think that it is actually possible for different ethnicities to co-exist, so saying that she stands with Gaza doesn't actually mean that she wants every single jew killed first. Indeed, the girl next to her in that picture has a sign saying THIS JEW STANDS WITH PALESTINE - if she's actually an antisemite who is directly calling for a final solution to the jewish problem, why isn't she trying to murder the girl next to her?
She’s almost 21 now. At some point your not dumb kid and you just don’t accidentally do genocide promotion.
She did not accidentally promote genocide. A small plush toy was inflated into a fictional dogwhistle in order to discredit Greta after she supported the other side of an incredibly fierce argument in the public space. There isn't a single serious thinker in the world who thinks that Greta Thunberg is a secret nazi.
I don’t understand politics? I see people flying in on hangliders then machine gunning down civilians. Then Greta shows support for them along with many others.
I then see opinion polls that Hamas is mostly supported by the residents of Palestine. Greta and her ilk then show support for the people backing hanglide and machine civilians. Sometimes the obvious answer is the correct answer.
I mean I knew Jews having their hands in everything behind the scenes was a belief. In fact I’ve even posted here that I believe it is fundamentally true. (I just don’t believe in murdering Jews). But I’m of the belief they contribute a lot to society.
Maybe a fairer representation would be she isn’t an anti-Semite directly she’s just fine with genociding high IQ successful people which a lot of Jews fall under.
Being autistic isn’t an excuse. Autistic people get symbolism. I’ve been accused of being on the same spectrum as her. She just happened to pick anti-Semitic symbolism at the same time she was backing a group with a goal of genociding jews.
Then Greta shows support for them along with many others.
Greta showed support for Gaza. This doesn't mean she supports murdering civilians, anymore than an American talking about how they support the troops means they endorsed Abu Graib or the dropping of agent orange on Vietnam. People can support causes even if they disagree with the actions taken by other supporters of that cause.
Maybe a fairer representation would be she isn’t an anti-Semite directly she’s just fine with genociding high IQ successful people which a lot of Jews fall under.
I don't think you're taking this remotely seriously if you believe that she actually supports genociding smart and successful people. This is a comical lack of charity and seems like a wilful attempt to misunderstand her and what she stands for. It isn't particularly hard to work out why left-wingers don't like Israel and support the Palestinian cause, though I suppose it is even easier to simply imagine extremely unflattering caricatures of those you disagree with. What do you actually think is more likely - that an internationally famous and notable left-wing activist is actually a secret nazi who hates smart people and is ok with jews being genocided because they're intelligent (presumably she isn't murdering her jewish friend because said friend is stupid), or that she's actually a left-wing political figure who believes in left wing political ideas?
But to return to the original point, we're talking about whether or not the octopus plush toy she had was an antisemitic dogwhistle. To be perfectly blunt, I don't think you've proven your claim that it is a signifier of hidden antisemitism in the slightest. I pay enough attention to internet culture that I'd probably know if a new antisemitic dogwhistle showed up, and I can honestly state that a generic plush toy of an octopus isn't one them.
I’m not sure how you can describe the recent Palestinian attack on Israel other than it’s a hate crime and genocide. She then posted support for them with no qualifiers. That is being extremely charitable.
The right never gets that. Even say the Proud Boys who leader is Afro-Caribbean was accused in a debate of being a white supremacists organization. If I’m even not using that standard but an easier standard of you just backed an organization that did genocide with no qualifications then it seems to be fair that they back Jewish genocide. There are lines for being charitable, this is not it.
Even the most charitable take is she something like anti-growth so she’s fine with murdering people for that goal. Maybe that’s not anti-semitism but there is no functional difference in the results between antisemitism and her position. It’s almost like a Nazi saying I don’t hate Jews we just needed their land for ethnic Germans to breathe.
Greta holds favorable views of a population that contains a substantial percentage of people who have been shown by word or action to support or excuse brutal acts of terror against Israelis.
Greta holds certain unfavorable views about the Israeli state common among far left anti-colonialist activist types.
The TeeTurtle reversible Octopus plush, which went viral on TikTok sometime before January 2021 [ https://sports.yahoo.com/tiktokers-using-reversible-octopus-plushie-174529042.html ] specifically for its utility in helping people communicate their emotions, is in fact a personal item that Greta owns because she finds it useful in communicating her emotions, and it appears in the photo for this reason alone.
I disagree with others who have conceded that she "accidentally used an antisemitic dogwhistle", as if she wore a number 88 sports jersey or waved her hand in a way that looked like a Nazi salute. To me, the crux of the issue is that a chibi octopus is simply not an antisemitic dogwhistle. Assertions linking it to the sprawling octopus/kraken political cartoon trope seem to me to be an incredible reach and a transparently post-hoc construction invented for this specific case at this specific moment. I obviously can't prove it, but I have a very strong impression that at no point in history has anyone ever surreptitiously included an octopus in a piece of content in order to subtly signal antisemitism to fellow antisemites. When the sprawling octopus trope is occasionally made use of as a representation of Jewish power or conspiracy, it's explicitly not as a 'dogwhistle', it's necessarily the central feature of the work. Political cartoons aren't subtle about what is supposed to represent what. There's nothing inherent about octopuses that's antisemitic, or at least there wasn't until October 21st, 2023. It's the sprawling octopus visual trope that's been considered potentially antisemitic by some, and the plush is about as far away from an example of the visual trope as you can get while still being an octopus.
It seems like there's two different discussions happening here - is Greta potentially an ideological enemy of the state of Israel, whose general support for the Palestinian people as a whole necessarily implies she supports some people who wish to see Israel destroyed and are themselves supporting or engaging in violent acts to further that goal? Sure, potentially, logically you can get there. I'm no fan of Greta, so I have no aversion to any of that being true. Does the potential truth value of that make it any more plausible that her TeeTurtle reversible Octopus plush is inherently, or was being used in this context as, an antisemitic hate symbol? No, I don't think it does, and I apparently am willing to die on the hill that it doesn't!
(The discussion about the terminal moral implications of pro-Palestinian activists' rhetoric is probably the more important one, but the plush thing is what the comment thread is about, so.)
Is indistinguishable from terrorism and potentially genocide. It’s no different than posting pro Al-queda stuff after 9/11.
Not very indistinguishable from Genocide but at minimum against everything Pax Romana and international law etc that has minimized violence since WW2. If what you support leads to mass deaths then it’s just mass death promoting.
That’s weird. Curious she chose one thing to put in her photo with her history of knowing how to do photos with antisemitic vibes.
I really wish right wingers ever got this kind of charitable takes. Of course I’ve been accused of being a white supremacists because I have a favorable opinion of Enrique Tarrio who well hasn’t killed black people.
Or we can just go with she came out and supported a group that just killed a bunch of unarmed Jews with zero military equipment including babies and old people and then included an item used in antisemitic tropes. Maybe she’s really that much of an autistic useful idiot.
If there aren't, there may be soon. Pictures of Greta loading cattle cars or ovens can join the tasteful / erotic / disturbing pictures of her on a certain anonymous image board.
I really wish right wingers ever got this kind of charitable takes.
As do I! I wish everyone received charitable takes, and I'm damned well going to fight for everyone to receive charitable takes (other than possibly in a "I know you didn’t mean this, but now maybe you are a bit more empathetic to what it's like to be on the receiving end of this sort of thing, and how stupid it all is.")
Her core message is antisemitism. Free Palestine is antisemitism. Palestine elected Hamas. Majority still publically support Hamas. Hamas just executed Jews at scale. Try to claim that it’s not antisemitism isn’t some charitable take. It’s wrong.
Pray for Peace etc would be fine etc. backing those who do genocide just makes you antisemitic.
If you have any suggestions for Israel as to how to successfully destroy Hamas without hurting any women and children, I'm sure they would be thrilled to hear them.
Would seem to fit for Hamas attacking civilians. As far I know every Israel has done has been within Geneva convention allowed war acts. And they go much farther like giving warnings before bombing. Them the laws.
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Notes -
It’s definitely not almost zero chance. There is a ton of antisemitism going around. You can’t just forgive everyone for being a dumb kid who did antisemitism by accident. Someone is pulling the strings.
And Greta is fairly high up decision maker in this food chain. Now perhaps she’s all manipulated by her parents but at some point the people calling for let’s kill the Jews need to be believed and are actually advocating for what they are saying.
I fail to understand how you just accidentally use a Jewish dog whistle while also fairly directly calling for Jewish genocide.
Either that or Americas left is just the global useful idiot. Hamas does literally mean drive them into the sea till they drown and the Gretas are always supporting those types.
She’s almost 21 now. At some point your not dumb kid and you just don’t accidentally do genocide promotion.
Relax man. My wife bought the same plushie - the octopus that can be flipped inside-out to show a smiling or frowning face - a few years ago because she thought it was a funny way to clarify her mood, i.e., actually angry or just hormonally incapable of expressing anything other than grumpiness.
So I for one actually buy the neurodivergent-people-excuse. And not for love of that meaningless term.
She chooses to put one item in the picture. What’s the probability of that one item being associated with antisemitism? 1 in 50k?
It doesn’t make any Bayesian sense to take the assumption it wasn’t on purpose.
I would contest that probability. From my understanding, there is no confirmed case of a plush octopus used to signal antisemitism.
Basically anything can be a dog whistle. If there was a pound note or anything related to money in the background, they would claim that it was related to claims that the Jews controlled global finance. If it was a plush wolf, people would point out that the Nazis named lot of things after wolves. If it was a German Shepard plushy, that is obviously a reference to Hitler's dog. A goblin is /obviously/ just a stereotype of a Jewish person, so a Harry Potter book would be Problematic. Gas stoves are dog whistles for pro Holocaust positions. The signs in the photo were not written in Fraktur, just like the Nazis got rid of Fraktur. They are also written in English, a Germanic (!) language. Of course, England expelled the Jews at some point, so this is a clear call for the Jews to be expelled from both the UK and Israel. Any visible number which contains the digit sequence 18 or 88 is also antisemitic.
If Greta had placed her plushy on a globe, then I would concede that there is a significant probability that this is meant as a homage to Nazi caricatures. As it is, the octopus is the most unobjectionable part of the picture.
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If it had been a frowning dog, would we be talking about Blondie right now?
No we will just listen to what people say. And when they tell you they support killing Jews we will take them at their word.
If a nazi walked around with an easy bake oven I’m not going to assume it meant he just wanted a cupcake
Please don't abuse the phrasing "listen to what people say" when you actually mean "speculate what people mean". The entire point of "take them at their word" is to take them at their literal word. If you want to use this phrase, please link a video of Greta Thunberg literally advocating Jewish genocide in those exact terms.
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I find it extremely unlikely that the octopus carries any of the significance you’re attributing to it. In addition, she’s “tell[ing] you they support killing Jews” in the same sense that one of your opponents might say that people who say “I stand with Israel” or whatever are directly telling you they’re ok with apartheid and bombing children. The argument is silly no matter who uses it.
Disclaimer: I don’t care about Thunberg in general, and am annoyed to he placed in the position of defending a professional activist. Hamas and mass civilian massacres are terrible.
The debate is better when people admit what they actually mean.
As far as Gaza goes I support an apartheid state and bombing children in Gaza as collateral damage of hitting military targets. We should admit that Free Palestine actually means - Genocide of Jews.
FWIF I don't have a dog in the Israeli-Palestinian fight (though I suppose I'm indirectly connected to one side, but not sufficiently to make me care). I'm just pro-squid.
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I doubt that particular person in the photo supports genociding Jews. She likely supports changes in the status quo that could plausibly end with violent ethnic cleansing of Jews from the area (I think it would lead to a civil war, and who would win would depend heavily on contingent things that happened in the interim), but she probably also doesn’t believe that’s the case.
The most charitable take is wanton negligence and being a useful idiot.
We literally just saw 1500 Israeli civilians killed. In the most brutal fashion possible.
This would be like being a member of the Oakland Raiders. You just saw Henry Ruggs get obliterated and drive 150 mph and kill someone. You then do the same action the next day. There are charitable takes and on Oct 5 it could be understood not to understand what they mean. But when you do the same behavior the next day that led to loss of life well you don’t have an excuse to be that dumb anymore.
There is a point where both sidism fails and at the motte we don’t need to take every viewpoint as being rational. You should update your beliefs when you watch concert goers machined gun and mothers babies cut out if their stomache and beheaded.
If you are going to back genocide of the Jews then defend genocide of the Jews.
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There's zero chance that this was an antisemitic dogwhistle. Greta is an individual whose political inclinations and beliefs have been broadcast all over the world and none of them line up with antisemitism. I don't think you understand politics well at all if you think that left-wing opposition to Israel is motivated by antisemitism. The limit of her antisemitism is owning an innocuous plush octopus toy. Nobody is "pulling the strings" to make a slightly autistic (not an insult, she has claimed this about herself) young girl buy a small plush toy. Children routinely purchase stuffed toys all over the world.
Greta has no decision-making authority beyond her own personal statements. She is not some big leader - she was a symbol because she expressed political motivations at an extremely young age. She isn't some well respected guru or thought leader, she's simply a prominent activist. Do you really, seriously think that she'd have any influence at all if she decided to come out publicly and say "Hey everyone, I just saw a really well made /pol/ infographic, turns out I was wrong and the nazis were right - gas the jews now!"?
The plush toy of an octopus is not an antisemitic dogwhistle, it is a small toy purchased by a child. 4chan has been breaking new ground in discovering and developing new antisemitic dogwhistles (like the OK hand sign and drinking milk) but not even they have managed to get to the point of calling CHILDREN BUYING SMALL PLUSH TOYS the new sign that they're antisemites who are already goose-stepping and heiling Hitler in their heart of hearts. This is utterly paranoid conspiracy-theory thinking that sees vast amounts of meaning in incredibly inconsequential acts.
Huh? Where did Greta do that? Can you show me the example of her talking about how Hitler was right and the jews need to be gassed? The sign she was actually holding in reality said "STAND WITH GAZA" - and there's actually a big difference between saying "I stand with Gaza" as opposed to "All the filthy juden need to be exterminated". Remember, people on the left think that it is actually possible for different ethnicities to co-exist, so saying that she stands with Gaza doesn't actually mean that she wants every single jew killed first. Indeed, the girl next to her in that picture has a sign saying THIS JEW STANDS WITH PALESTINE - if she's actually an antisemite who is directly calling for a final solution to the jewish problem, why isn't she trying to murder the girl next to her?
She did not accidentally promote genocide. A small plush toy was inflated into a fictional dogwhistle in order to discredit Greta after she supported the other side of an incredibly fierce argument in the public space. There isn't a single serious thinker in the world who thinks that Greta Thunberg is a secret nazi.
I don’t understand politics? I see people flying in on hangliders then machine gunning down civilians. Then Greta shows support for them along with many others.
I then see opinion polls that Hamas is mostly supported by the residents of Palestine. Greta and her ilk then show support for the people backing hanglide and machine civilians. Sometimes the obvious answer is the correct answer.
I mean I knew Jews having their hands in everything behind the scenes was a belief. In fact I’ve even posted here that I believe it is fundamentally true. (I just don’t believe in murdering Jews). But I’m of the belief they contribute a lot to society.
Maybe a fairer representation would be she isn’t an anti-Semite directly she’s just fine with genociding high IQ successful people which a lot of Jews fall under.
Being autistic isn’t an excuse. Autistic people get symbolism. I’ve been accused of being on the same spectrum as her. She just happened to pick anti-Semitic symbolism at the same time she was backing a group with a goal of genociding jews.
Greta showed support for Gaza. This doesn't mean she supports murdering civilians, anymore than an American talking about how they support the troops means they endorsed Abu Graib or the dropping of agent orange on Vietnam. People can support causes even if they disagree with the actions taken by other supporters of that cause.
I don't think you're taking this remotely seriously if you believe that she actually supports genociding smart and successful people. This is a comical lack of charity and seems like a wilful attempt to misunderstand her and what she stands for. It isn't particularly hard to work out why left-wingers don't like Israel and support the Palestinian cause, though I suppose it is even easier to simply imagine extremely unflattering caricatures of those you disagree with. What do you actually think is more likely - that an internationally famous and notable left-wing activist is actually a secret nazi who hates smart people and is ok with jews being genocided because they're intelligent (presumably she isn't murdering her jewish friend because said friend is stupid), or that she's actually a left-wing political figure who believes in left wing political ideas?
But to return to the original point, we're talking about whether or not the octopus plush toy she had was an antisemitic dogwhistle. To be perfectly blunt, I don't think you've proven your claim that it is a signifier of hidden antisemitism in the slightest. I pay enough attention to internet culture that I'd probably know if a new antisemitic dogwhistle showed up, and I can honestly state that a generic plush toy of an octopus isn't one them.
I’m not sure how you can describe the recent Palestinian attack on Israel other than it’s a hate crime and genocide. She then posted support for them with no qualifiers. That is being extremely charitable.
The right never gets that. Even say the Proud Boys who leader is Afro-Caribbean was accused in a debate of being a white supremacists organization. If I’m even not using that standard but an easier standard of you just backed an organization that did genocide with no qualifications then it seems to be fair that they back Jewish genocide. There are lines for being charitable, this is not it.
Even the most charitable take is she something like anti-growth so she’s fine with murdering people for that goal. Maybe that’s not anti-semitism but there is no functional difference in the results between antisemitism and her position. It’s almost like a Nazi saying I don’t hate Jews we just needed their land for ethnic Germans to breathe.
I think it can be simultaneously true that:
I disagree with others who have conceded that she "accidentally used an antisemitic dogwhistle", as if she wore a number 88 sports jersey or waved her hand in a way that looked like a Nazi salute. To me, the crux of the issue is that a chibi octopus is simply not an antisemitic dogwhistle. Assertions linking it to the sprawling octopus/kraken political cartoon trope seem to me to be an incredible reach and a transparently post-hoc construction invented for this specific case at this specific moment. I obviously can't prove it, but I have a very strong impression that at no point in history has anyone ever surreptitiously included an octopus in a piece of content in order to subtly signal antisemitism to fellow antisemites. When the sprawling octopus trope is occasionally made use of as a representation of Jewish power or conspiracy, it's explicitly not as a 'dogwhistle', it's necessarily the central feature of the work. Political cartoons aren't subtle about what is supposed to represent what. There's nothing inherent about octopuses that's antisemitic, or at least there wasn't until October 21st, 2023. It's the sprawling octopus visual trope that's been considered potentially antisemitic by some, and the plush is about as far away from an example of the visual trope as you can get while still being an octopus.
It seems like there's two different discussions happening here - is Greta potentially an ideological enemy of the state of Israel, whose general support for the Palestinian people as a whole necessarily implies she supports some people who wish to see Israel destroyed and are themselves supporting or engaging in violent acts to further that goal? Sure, potentially, logically you can get there. I'm no fan of Greta, so I have no aversion to any of that being true. Does the potential truth value of that make it any more plausible that her TeeTurtle reversible Octopus plush is inherently, or was being used in this context as, an antisemitic hate symbol? No, I don't think it does, and I apparently am willing to die on the hill that it doesn't!
(The discussion about the terminal moral implications of pro-Palestinian activists' rhetoric is probably the more important one, but the plush thing is what the comment thread is about, so.)
Is indistinguishable from terrorism and potentially genocide. It’s no different than posting pro Al-queda stuff after 9/11.
Not very indistinguishable from Genocide but at minimum against everything Pax Romana and international law etc that has minimized violence since WW2. If what you support leads to mass deaths then it’s just mass death promoting.
That’s weird. Curious she chose one thing to put in her photo with her history of knowing how to do photos with antisemitic vibes.
I really wish right wingers ever got this kind of charitable takes. Of course I’ve been accused of being a white supremacists because I have a favorable opinion of Enrique Tarrio who well hasn’t killed black people.
Or we can just go with she came out and supported a group that just killed a bunch of unarmed Jews with zero military equipment including babies and old people and then included an item used in antisemitic tropes. Maybe she’s really that much of an autistic useful idiot.
Wait, there are photos of Greta loading cattle-cars or something?
If there aren't, there may be soon. Pictures of Greta loading cattle cars or ovens can join the tasteful / erotic / disturbing pictures of her on a certain anonymous image board.
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As do I! I wish everyone received charitable takes, and I'm damned well going to fight for everyone to receive charitable takes (other than possibly in a "I know you didn’t mean this, but now maybe you are a bit more empathetic to what it's like to be on the receiving end of this sort of thing, and how stupid it all is.")
Her core message is antisemitism. Free Palestine is antisemitism. Palestine elected Hamas. Majority still publically support Hamas. Hamas just executed Jews at scale. Try to claim that it’s not antisemitism isn’t some charitable take. It’s wrong.
Pray for Peace etc would be fine etc. backing those who do genocide just makes you antisemitic.
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If killing ~1200 people is a genocide, what is Israel doing to the Palestinians now?
Eliminating a military threat.
Why are women and children considered military threats to the Israeli governments?
They aren't. Hamas is a military threat.
If you have any suggestions for Israel as to how to successfully destroy Hamas without hurting any women and children, I'm sure they would be thrilled to hear them.
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The same reason why a tank's armor is a part of it.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide
Would seem to fit for Hamas attacking civilians. As far I know every Israel has done has been within Geneva convention allowed war acts. And they go much farther like giving warnings before bombing. Them the laws.
A genocide with a warning is no longer a genocide? I guess that's what these Palestinians get for living next to evil terrorists uh.
There's a difference between "deliberately targeting civilians" and "collateral damage in urban combat".
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