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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   30319 thread views

Israel-Gaza Megathread #2

This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.

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What's up with Senate passing a resolution affirming support for Israel 97-0? As a flyover pleb I'm genuinely confounded by this. I do not give a single shit about either Palestinians and Israelis, and I honestly have a negative feeling towards both of them since I'm pretty sure they would abuse me if I lived in there country and they probably despise my race/religion/way of life. My preferred response to such a proposed resolution by my elected officials would be "lol who cares," but somehow nearly everyone across the entire political spectrum feels either conviction or pressure to signal support for one side of this ugly foreign conflict.

What's going on here? I know there's the "Jews secretly control the government" thesis, but a massive global conspiracy has never seemed like the most parsimonious explanation. What's the motivation of, say, a senator from Mississippi or Oregon to affirm their support? My hunch is that the political calculus is simply that "supporting" Israel bears little to no political costs, whereas opposing/ignoring Israel might have a remote risk of negative publicity or loss of campaign funding.

Is there a more nuanced explanation?

I know there's the "Jews secretly control the government" thesis, but a massive global conspiracy has never seemed like the most parsimonious explanation.

How about "there is a huge Zionist lobby, and Near East policy is minor enough in American politics to be captured"? I agree that that sort of influence couldn't be done without people knowing about it, but AIPAC's existence isn't a secret.

I honestly have a negative feeling towards both of them since I'm pretty sure they would abuse me if I lived in there country and they probably despise my race/religion/way of life.

I don't know about Palestine, but that is a very odd thing to say about Israel.

This has much less to do with Jews than it does with evangelicals.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/half-of-evangelicals-support-israel-because-they-believe-it-is-important-for-fulfilling-end-times-prophecy/

What kick-starts the end times into motion is Israel’s political boundaries being reestablished to what God promised the Israelites according to the Bible,” Pastor Nate Pyle told Newsweek in January. This is not an uncommon view.

The LifeWay poll found that 80 percent of evangelicals believed that the creation of Israel in 1948 was a fulfillment of biblical prophecy that would bring about Christ’s return.

There's no Muslim lobby to worry about by comparison.

That's just kicking the question back though isn't it? Sure, politicians support Israel because opposing them has negative consequences but why is that the case?

The answer is that the Democrats have a signifiant secular Jewish/academic bloc that will lobby on Israel's behalf on ethnic/racialist grounds and the Republicans have a significant Evangelical Bloc that will lobby on Israel's behalf for religious and cultural reasons. Additionally, there is the joint Republican/Democrat MIC bloc that will lobby on Israel's behalf for economic reasons (they're some of our best customers).

The palistinians might enjoy some support on Twitter from the intersectional left and the more autistic members of the alt-right because "Joos Bad" but in terms of actual influence on US politics compared to the three above, they're showing up with a BB gun to a Battleship fight.

there is the joint Republican/Democrat MIC bloc that will lobby on Israel's behalf for economic reasons (they're some of our best customers).

Iron Dome is a great example. Israel and Raytheon working hand in hand.

Insert Yes_Chad.png here

Foreign policy is a thing, and Israel is one of the US' most steadfast allies outside of the Anglosphere and the #1 ally in the Middle East, modulo oil and weapons deals with the Saudis.

There is also the question of shared values. Liberal democracies are natural allies, unlike the rest of the Middle East.

It has very little to do with religion or ethnicity, IMHO.

Liberal democracies are natural allies

I took a political science class long ago back when I was in college. The professor (somewhat humorously) presented a darker take on this. Claiming that liberal democracies gang up on and attack non-liberal-non-democracy countries and wage endless war to make the current global order.

Chicago school professors to the right of you, CIA-backed Army-Ranger-trained death squads to the left.

Or as Dylan put it, Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am, stuck in the middle with you.

Democracy has always implied significantly more than just voting in the western understanding. Variously it has included Capitalism, minority rights, gay rights, secularism.

Israel is one of the US' most steadfast allies outside of the Anglosphere and the #1 ally in the Middle East,

It's also the US' most poisonous ally; the alliance with Israel is the whole reason the US has problems in the Near East. Osama bin Laden explicitly cited that alliance as his motive for the Twin Towers. And, y'know, there have been multiple instances of Israel selling US weapons to the PRC.

And, y'know, there have been multiple instances of Israel selling US weapons to the PRC.

This is a good criticism. Lead with this next time.

Osama bin Laden explicitly cited that alliance as his motive for the Twin Towers.

"Why aren't we doing what the mass murderers want!?", on the other hand, is not a good criticism. Bad game theory, bad morality, really undercuts any presumption of objectivity. A lot of jihadi ideology traces back to Qutb getting pissy about dancing; should we ban subversive media like "Footloose" to keep them appeased?

I've contemplated how much of modern jihadi violence can traced back to an adult monitored church youth social event circa 1958. And also every now and then an American woman smiling at an exchange student when he stared at them.

I've contemplated how much of modern jihadi violence can traced back to an adult monitored church youth social event circa 1958.

Thanks for the article on this; it's what I was referring to but I was too lazy to find a writeup.

And also every now and then an American woman smiling at an exchange student when he stared at them.

This, on the other hand, isn't ringing any bells for me. Was this an actual "inciting" event? (or multiple events? "now and then"?)

Not a particular incident. Just general complaint that sometimes American women smile at men looking at them. I can't find the quote now.

The American girl is well acquainted with her body's seductive capacity. She knows it lies in the face, and in expressive eyes, and thirsty lips. She knows seductiveness lies in the round breasts, the full buttocks, and in the shapely thighs, sleek legs -- and she shows all this and does not hide it.

Which is not the quote I was looking for, but shows his opinion regarding American women. And of course this is the 1950s, so he meant to say you can see the shape of the lower part of their legs beneath their skirts covered in high stocking so no skin is showing.

Also while looking for that quote I found that the American town Qutb lived in outlawed alcohol. So he was indeed radicalized going to church social events and high school wrestling matches in a dry town in the 50s.

Just saying: it's not much of a benefit that Israel helps out with Near East conflicts, when we would have avoided both Afghanistan and Iraq had the US not been allied to Israel.

My hunch is that the political calculus is simply that "supporting" Israel bears little to no political costs

It’s this. Frankly I’m surprised 3 senators abstained.

They probably just weren't present.

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