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I might regret engaging with this but... to me these rules appear targeted towards stopping sexual harassment. Most women consider pressure after she's said "no" harassment, unsolicited dick picks harassment, etc etc. And it really does feel unsafe. Now, some uncomfortable and unwanted communication just comes with the territory of being female in the dating world. I do think redefining (most) of these things as sexual violence is bad as it weakens the definition of sexual violence. But... a lot of these behaviors really are highly upsetting to many women, and the other comments saying this is just "normal dating" have me pretty worried about what these posters think is normal behavior.
Pressuring women for contact or sex when she has said no should not be normal. Unsolicited pictures of gentitalia should not be normal. Continuing to contact a woman after she's said no should not be normal. Lying should not be normal.
I think this is more an attempt to legislate men into treating women like fellow humans than trying to control dating. The way the sexes interact is complex enough that I'm not sure it really can be effectively legislated. Ultimately, I guess I agree that this law would be bad (or at least not have the intended effects), but a culture should also never be in a position where people think legislation is the only way for women to be treated well.
What's wrong with the men these days that people think this is the only way they will behave?
I don't think there's anything wrong with "the men" these days that wasn't wrong with them 50, 100, 200 or 500 years ago. Men have always done things analogous to this prior to the existence of dating apps or smartphones or even telephones. I think we have plenty of reason to believe that men are behaving much better today than they did in the past - I'm sure the Australian statistics for sexual assault over the last hundred years would bear that out. [EDIT: not over the last thirty years, per /u/AshLael. Would still like to see a chart of the last hundred years.]
I don't think the people behind this bill have exhausted every possible course of action to attempt to remedy this problem and are now throwing up their hands in defeat and trying to legislate the problem out of existence. I think these people are petty authoritarians who want the state to intervene and control every facet of human behaviour. I think trying to legislate the problem out of existence was a first resort for them, not a last resort.
Twenty years ago we would have said that a man who's overly pushy and bad at reading signals needs to learn a bit of empathy and improve his social skills - not locked up. From a rehabilitative perspective, I have a hard time believing that spending a few months in jail for the crime of sending a few rude texts would make a man more respectful towards women.
Also, this is wrong. Data only goes back to 1993, but it's shown a clear upward trend in the 30 years since then.
Thanks for the source. Apparently Australia only outlawed marital rape in 1990. I wonder how much this contributed to the increase.
I'd have actually put "immigration from extremely misogynistic cultures" up on the list as as a much bigger contributor. There've been a lot of scandals with regards to explicitly ethnically motivated sexual abuse and I've even posted about some of them here on the Motte before as well. It got to the point that in the 2000s we actually had race riots over islamic sexual harassment in public places. To be honest I'd be rather surprised if we didn't have a proto-Rotherham waiting to be discovered too.
I hadn't thought of that. When I think about immigrants coming to Australia I immediately think of Chinese and Vietnamese, but I suppose there are a lot of Lebanese as well, aren't there? Would you happen to have stats on the most biggest immigrant groups by source nation over the last few decades?
The Lebanese were who I was thinking of with regards to the ethnically motivated assaults, but I don't have the stats on this front unfortunately.
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Can we PLEASE try to stay SLIGHTLY connected to reality here?
No one is trying to
No legislation has been proposed, no legislation is being drafted.
Likewise, there is absolutely no prospect of any man
What has happened is dating apps have been asked to write a code of conduct for themselves. This does not involve any legislation, it does not involve any penalties, and it CERTAINLY does not involve any new criminal offences applied to users.
This is an example of the government laundering legislation through private entities by pressuring the private entities that if they don't obey, they will be faced with legislation. If they do obey, then the government can claim to have nothing to do with it because it's "just private entities, surely they can do whatever they want".
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Okay, fair enough, I was being hyperbolic.
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Then women must stop rewarding these behaviors. If you want to actually impose change from on high, your authority has to somehow punish Stacey when she accepts a date with Chad after she turned him down the first time. Just telling men that 'no means never' isn't going to work if they see that guys who get laid are being persistent and guys who aren't persistent don't get laid.
I'm not going to deny that lying, manipulation, and harassing women get men laid. That's been well documented. But if you think that manipulating, lying to, and harassing women is fine as long as it gets you sex, maybe... just maybe... you're the reason Australia is considering this
lawregulation.I'm going to take a step back here: Earlier today, I listened to a podcast on the Free Press, Bari Weiss' site. It was called Are we living through end times?, and was about the signs of social unrest that precede revolution. Our time has many of them. One of the primary signs of impending revolution is “emmiseration of the masses”. One of the things that happens during this emisseration is that people start to see that although their ancestors were able to achieve success playing by the rules, they can't anymore. They come to believe they now have to cheat their way to the top. And indeed, the cheaters win. They win in politics, they win in college admissions, they win at tests, and although the podcast did not address this... they now win in the bedroom too.
But a society cannot function if only cheaters can win. The entire system breaks down. And indeed, our whole sexual system is breaking down. 25% of 40 year olds have never been married, and 6/10 men in their 20s are single. Our birth rate is the lowest it's ever been. The situation is not better for women. I can't find the articles I wanted to cite here, so instead I'll link to an account by a university professor of the confusion she and her students feel when they are told they ought to feel happy about sexual encounters they found exploitative and upsetting. Note that it often takes women years to figure out why they felt used. Do you think Stacy likes it when Chad pushes her boundaries until she has sex with him?
The only winners in today's sexual culture are the small percentage of men who can have dozens of sex partners while an increasing number of men have none at all. We are in the middle of a sexual apocalypse, and we have got to find a way to reverse it.
This bill is an attempt to get men to play by the rules again. There have always been cheaters, but the costs of hurting women were too high for most men when the women they dated were their friends' sisters or people who were going to be in their social circles for years. Now that men can date women none of their friends know, whom they can arrange to never see again, and have a society gaslighting women into thinking casual sex is empowering, men can use underhanded tactics like these to gain an unfair advantage over other men. This is bad for women, it's bad for honest men, it's bad for men who resort to them to compete, and it's really really bad for society. When liars and manipulators win, it corrodes our culture's soul.
We can't function like this. This
lawregulation isn't the answer. Other posters are right that the worst offenders will find ways to slip through. This law is a bandaid slapped on a hemorrhaging amputated arm. Our sex culture needs a deeper culture change in order to work for most people again, but we have to find a way to fix this! Our whole future is riding on it.I'm behind you on "manipulating" and "lying". On "harassing"... I think you may be looking at the problem backwards. I think the stigmatisation of deep love is part of what you correctly decry here, and I think rolling that back in law but also in culture is a necessary part of any reversal. Say what you will about stalkers, they're about the least-likely people to cheat on you.
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I agree with most everything you say but the way you phrase certain things, as exemplified by the 'triggered' @Folamh3 reply you got, undermines it and makes it seem like you are coming from a point that completely misunderstands why these problems arise to begin with. At least as far as it relates to what I assume is a popular opinion here; that society changed in this way to a large extent because of women's empowerment.
Now, I think it would behoove us, instead of blaming some vague thing like 'society', to recognize just what happened. Why were things allowed to change to begin with? Why didn't the men, who then had power, stop it?
The verbiage in your post is steeped in the sort of meaning that feels similar to what one would hear from a lone brave professor who decided to teach the first woman who attended his lectures despite all the men in the class leaving in protest. Or the rhetoric of a universalist 'egalitarian'.
"Fairness."
"Our future"
There are no 'fair' solutions to this problem. The very idea of 'fairness' and 'equality' between men and women was part of what created it. There is no 'us'. The only 'working' societies in the world subjugate women. The universe does not owe anyone who wanders outside of that dynamic a solution to their self inflicted problems.
To that end, regardless of how highly you think of your post, I don't think you are saying a lot. The impression I get from reading it, for whatever that is worth, is that the drowning mans salvation lies at the bottom of the ocean.
Outside of that I am all ears to an actual solution to this problem that doesn't come from Catholic neo-reactionaries and the like.
Wow I can't remember the last time someone accused me of being "triggered" by something.
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Nice way to pass the buck there, blaming this on "society" rather than "feminist media".
This is antagonistic and a bit low effort. Do less of this please.
Understood, apologies.
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It's not a law! No one is considering a law!
"You do this thing we want you to do 'voluntarily' or we'll do it for you" is the most transparent of fig leaves. That it's regulation by threat rather than code doesn't make it less de facto required.
I mean, I wouldn't even call it a fig leaf. There's no pretense the government isn't driving this. They had an announcement and everything.
But it remains the fact that there is no law being proposed and this remains an important distinction! The government is saying "hey we think this is a problem, come up with some ways to address it". So yes, it is compelling action. But it is allowing the apps to decide themselves on the specific action, it is not imposing penalties for breaches, and it is not putting legislation in place that will endure beyond the term of the current Minister. This is the lightest of light touches.
I agree with you that this is currently not actually a law, but I think you are being slightly dishonest when you claim that "No one is considering a law!" - this is the sort of action which frequently precedes legislation on the topic, as the problems the code is meant to address remain unaddressed. I find it hard to believe that even the most ardent supporter of a code like this actually believes that it will do anything at all to fix the problem of men continuing to propose alternatives when their first data idea gets shot down.
No, it isn't. I challenge you to provide me with even one example.
The New Media bargaining code is what I was thinking of specifically.
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right-o. regulation. So law by a non-lawmaking agency. I'll update my post accordingly.
(Despite the sarcasm, genuine thanks)
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I entirely agree. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone is willing to make the compromises that are necessary to solve this problem, because even suggesting most of them is taboo. There will need to be a technological solution or natural selection will eventually solve us for it.
What does natural selection solving it for us look? An Amish and Muslim future?
Don't forget the Quiverfull evangelicals!
I absolutelt endorse this future
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Laws catch the little sharks while the big ones just bull through. Maybe this is a feature designed to catch horny persistent careless-at-best individuals that aren't Chad.
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I'm not Australian, so it's not likely. But "lying" and manipulation and "harassment" (that is to say, not taking 'no' or even just evasiveness as 'never') have been part of the human mating dance at least since language was invented. Probably before.
That is correct. But what these rules do is empower cheaters more. The normal guy who is just trying to respond to an intentionally ambiguous situation is discouraged or punished. Chad, being Chad, doesn't care and does what he always does. And usually gets away with it.
Yes she does. Perhaps years later after Chad #5 or #10 or more she realizes that chasing that feeling was unwise, but at the time she loved it. And she put up barriers specifically to filter out men who wouldn't push them.
It can't fix the incentive structure. It can punish men who do things likely to get them sex, but all that does is empower even more the most brazen ones who for whatever reason can get away with it (i.e. Chad). It can force men out of the game, but the only way to get men to play by "the rules" is if playing by "the rules" can actually result in success.
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