site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   28725 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 28, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

It's getting unavoidable - the quality of news and novel information obtained from time here is crashing. I used to hear things here first - now I usually don't hear them here at all.

It's getting unavoidable that we're having far more people complain and add low-effort negative comments than actually take time to flesh out top level posts that are high quality. As @Amadan and others have consistently said, if you don't like the status quo why don't you contribute yourself, or try to organize something else to change it?

High quality, intellectual writing doesn't just drop out of thin air because you complain about it. It comes from intelligent people who are driven to write, and who want to sharpen their minds in an environment that tests their opinions.

Frankly, I'm concerned that the "quality of news an novel information" has gone up here much more than I'd like. In terms of a vision for this site, I'm far more in the camp of having great writers like @ymeskhout and @DaseindustriesLtd write long effortposts about serious issues they've spent a lot of time thinking about, rather than helping people like you get their latest CW fix.

There are a million places on the internet you can go to keep up with the spectacle of the twenty four hour news cycle. There aren't as many places where you can find in-depth analyses of Straussian themes, or a discussion that weaves together modern internet drama with the age-old idea of sacrifice and meaning and suffering, or the how the relationship between the rich and the poor has changed dramatically in the modern era.

These sorts of well thought out, insightful and useful write-ups are rare and take time to formulate. Expecting brilliant insights on every latest piece of CW gossip is ridiculous. Sure it might drive more engagement, but it would also likely lead us in a race to the bottom.

@Zorba something is up with the site code that makes trying to copy/paste a nightmare. It just doesn't work right. It either tries to copy or paste more than what one was trying to. Something is also up with text selection in the response box, selecting and editing text is completely borked. Trying to right click an incorrecrly spelled word for example will grey out the entire box module. I replicated these error on brave (chrome) and edge

rather than helping people like you get their latest CW fix.

That seems like a really uncharitable way to describe having previously enjoyed this spot as central source of important developments

I found adding :

.comment-anchor {

padding-left:25px

}

To the custom CSS in setting to help a lot if the issue you're talking about is the same I ran into before. The text is so close to the left side of the comment box that you can easily click and drag from outside of the text field and grab the whole comment hierarchy.

Long effort posts are often just meandering posts filled with unnecessary asides. We shouldn’t encourage length but quality. Sometimes length and quality go hand and hand. Sometimes brevity and quality go together.

The problem is we have this idea that short equals low effort (and therefore perhaps subject to moderation) whereas long equals high effort. I’d rather we judge based on “is this thoughtful.”

The problem is we have this idea that short equals low effort

I think people making this argument are way too dramatic. Yeah, some posters have this problem, but such is life, some people are better writers than others. But as someone who prefers to keep things brief, I haven't noticed you have to put in all that much work for a top level comment. I'm pretty sure 1-2 paragraphs is all you need.

Some posters use 7-8 paragraphs to communicate an idea that might take two sentences. It is annoying.

Some posters use 7-8 paragraphs to communicate an idea that might take two sentences. It is annoying.

Yes, some people are too verbose and could use editors, but we aren't a publication and we aren't going to mod people because "You're a bad writer." Your claim that we require verbosity is false. If you think someone goes on at too much length, you can either offer constructive criticism or ignore it. If you think they are going on at too much length because they think they have to to pass scrutiny here, you will have to give me an example of someone doing this.

There's nothing wrong with telling someone they're being unnecessarily verbose, especially if you can provide the two sentences that you think can replace the 7-8 paragraphs.

Go back to reddit if you want short thoughtless gotchas. This is the only haven I've found for long form posting, and I actually tend to prefer it, thanks. The rest of the internet has perfected the shortform. I don't see why you're so set on attacking the one place that rejects it.

Reddit is often pretty long-winded without good reason, to be honest. Smarter subreddits are positively infested with eloquent streams of consciousness in support of some pedestrian preconceived notion.

That's a fair point. I was a bit fired up when arguing with @zeke5123, I should probably tone it down a bit.

That being said, I'm more worried about the shift towards short form, mindless content than long form mindless content.

But (and maybe we agree here) the problem isn’t long or short form but the mindlessness.

You go back. I’m not rejecting it per se. Sometimes it takes time to lay out evidence or thoughts. But taking 100 words to say something that can be said in 10 words isn’t quality. It is bad writing.

My point isn’t that short form or long form is better. My point is that short form or long form can both be good or bad and choosing which one is dependent on what needs to be communicated.

My point is that short form or long form can both be good or bad and choosing which one is dependent on what needs to be communicated.

My point is that I agree with you, but because long form writing is an endangered species I'm more than happy keeping it alive here.

"This is the best place there is, so we should never critique it" is terrible advice. I'm sorry for cheaply paraphrasing what you said but it's how it read to me. This is the best place there is, you're right. It's worth trying to protect and cherish.

Honestly I can't recall a single mod action against things that are just short. I think top level CW posts should be a certain length to encourage discussion and prevent the strong pull of just having the Motte become a place where the news cycle is repeated.

Like the length of your comment is fine, and I see the vast majority of the comments on here around that length. Am I living in a bizzaro world where y'all are seeing all these comments modded and I'm not??? I am genuinely confused about these arguments.

Or is this just about the top level posts?

Just about top level posts.

Interesting. I'd say just put in the effort to add a couple paragraphs. The bar really is not that high.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats