site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 3, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Ya know, props for honesty and consistency and all that, but I'm confused - weren't you arguing a while ago that Chinese and other East Asians should be considered honorary whites? Is the difference here simply that Indians have lower average IQs? Because in the US East Asians certainly do work the racial spoils grift as hard as Indians do.

If it's just about IQ, wouldn't @self_made_human's demonstrably much higher IQ make him an exception? I mean, I get that you are not literally advocating we use IQ tests as an immigration qualification, but "We should welcome ethnic groups or not based on their average IQ" is a strange sort of white nationalism (as I've said before, I think you're going to have a hard time getting your fellow travelers to join you in welcoming Jews and Chinese and Koreans), and "We should welcome ethnic groups or not based on how progressive they turn once they hit our shores" would exclude pretty much all of them (including Canadians and Europeans), and "We should welcome individuals or not based on how much they align with my politics" is, frankly, as purely self-interested and devoid of higher principles as you accuse self_made_human of being.

Third San Diego, though. Almost a perfect city (aside from, y'know, all the homeless, etc.).

If it's just about IQ, wouldn't @self_made_human's demonstrably much higher IQ make him an exception?

I know this is almost certainly true, but it's still nice that people notice haha.

Now, if only I wasn't a 99.999th percentile wordcel and only like 75th as a shape rotator. I know which team makes more money!

We're on themotte. Most who bother to interact with comparatively longform text are higher IQ than average, and people here obviously like thinking about ideas.

What math courses have you completed, and how did the last few feel?

Hmm.. I was perfectly fine at math till 10th grade, where I fell off harshly.

I blame this on my (at the time undiagnosed) ADHD, since my eyes would glaze over.

I also severely fucked myself by not paying attention during early trigonometry lessons, something my tutors failed to address.

I think in a world where I was taking Ritalin at the time, I'd have done much better.

I do like math much more now that I'm not forced to study it, I watch channels like 3Blue1Brown on the regular, and I occasionally use GPT-4 to teach myself statistics.

I am under the impression that the tenets of ML aren't that complicated, and while I have no natural affinity for it, when my happiness is at stake I can pop pills and grind. I have to do that for medicine as is!

Edit: The Indian math curriculum is far more rigorous than the US one is, without going into things like AP courses. While my calculus is only middling and my trig terrible (beyond the very basics), I googled the 12th grade US maths curriculum and I think I have most of it handled.

weren't you arguing a while ago that Chinese and other East Asians should be considered honorary whites?

Yes, and if you recall, in the same post I explicitly named high-caste Indians as another group that could be easily slotted into the Castilian Futurist white-enough coalition in due time. India is, after all, one of the most important historical power centers of the Proto-Indo-European civilization, and Hinduism (especially the Vedic texts) contains a great degree of continuity with the religious and cultural outlook of that civilization.

The problem is that Western countries are not ready for a massive influx of Asian/Indian immigrants right now. We are far too culturally insecure, self-hating, weak, and committed to our own self-destruction. As it stands right now, Asians and Indians represent, as I said, a rapidly-expanding synthetic overclass, who are eager to obtain influence and positional goods by embracing anti-white identity politics. These are people of high human capital and good breeding, who can easily be inculcated into a resentful, vindictive, predatory ascendant elite at precisely the moment when white people are the most prey-like they’ve been in centuries.

If this were a confident civilization with a strong sense of pride and continuity with its past, high-quality immigrants who were eager to assimilate into that civilization would be an asset. And by assimilation, I’m talking about, among other things, marrying into the families who have ancestral ties to the founding of this nation, such that the children and especially grandchildren of these couplings would be visually near-indistinguishable from the historical population of the country, and would feel a genuine blood connection to the ancestral stock that built this nation. This could, in time, create a truly glorious race, syncretizing the best of the Asian world while remaining firmly rooted in, and continuous with, the greatest civilization of the last millennium. (It could even allow our civilization to reintegrate parts of its deep heritage - the forgotten Proto-Indo-European past I mentioned - that could prepare it for the spiritual conflicts of the 21st century.)

Does that describe the OP? No, it doesn’t seem like it. His girlfriend is Indian, their kids will be unmistakably Indian, and as I said, they will be acculturated into the social stratum that will not only allow them but strongly encourage them to wear their Indian-ness as a badge of weaponized otherness. Again, this is nothing against the OP as an individual. I don’t doubt his sincere appreciation for the aspects of this country that appeal to scrappy high-IQ outsiders, and that is, whether I like it or not, an important part of what America has always been. I simply think that this is not a good time to be inviting people like the OP into the West. We need a moratorium to figure out a lot of really complicated shit first, including dealing with the teeming hordes of immigrants that are already here, before we’ll be ready to talk about letting in more of them. In the meantime, I strongly encourage the OP to learn how to love and cherish India, and to try and make that country better; it certainly has a lot going for it, and it could really be incredibly if people like the OP were willing to stay and try to make it so.

In the meantime, I strongly encourage the OP to learn how to love and cherish India, and to try and make that country better; it certainly has a lot going for it, and it could really be incredibly if people like the OP were willing to stay and try to make it so.

Unfortunately it is hard for a minority of well-intentioned smart people to make a dent in an overall mediocrity. The Soviet Union had a huge number of extremely smart people including absolute geniuses of math and science and engineering, yet it was a backwards authoritarian shithole. Even modern Russia (despite a lot of brain drain these past 30 years) still has a lot of smart people, yet it is a shithole.

For the individual, the strategy of moving to a place that is already not a shithole usually makes a lot more sense than staying in a shithole and trying to improve it.

I've already given an entire year of my life, of my own volition, to working as an intern in a far larger and more active government hospital in lieu of my original, rural one.

It was just about the worst year of my life, I was working insane hours and not even getting paid for it (unlike those who stuck to wherever their med school was).

The worst of it was that I realized that if I went through the insane grind needed to get into a decent postgraduate specialization program, I could look forward to a similar lifestyle for another 3 or 4 years. If I hadn't already harbored aspirations of jumping ship, that alone would have made me.

If you want to read it, it's here. Probably one of the best things I've written.

If anybody tries to force me to go through that again, I'd punch them.