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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   3929 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for June 4, 2023

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I don't understand the seemingly recent popularity of "tomboy gfs" (bonus meme).

There's a lot of meta-ironic shitposting on 4chan and sometimes reddit about how tomboys are the best because, as far as I can understand the arguments, they're bros that have a pussy. I can kind of see how a bro-gf might have appealed to 14 year old me who thought feelings and femininity were totally gay, dude, and who just wanted to play Halo with my bros while we farted and laughed and punched each other. But I can't imagine any well-adjusted man over age 25 feeling this way unless they're particularly feminine themselves (in which case they would be attracted to "tomboys" for a different set of reasons).

I've been attracted to feminine girls my entire life (yes, even as a 14 year old retard) and have, for as long as I can remember, found their femininity mysterious and alluring. Is there an element to tomboy popularity that I'm missing? Is there an emotionally mature segment of men who are still into tomboys? Or is it all just a forced meme?

Edit: Since this post has caused some confusion, let me clarify -- I'm asking about a narrow definition of tomboy as described in the meme and in threads about "tomboys", not "any woman who isn't 100% feminine in every way." For those who don't want to click on the meme, the "tomboy gf" has the following non-traditional qualities:

  • Thinks makeup is stupid

  • Likes porn

  • Likes video games

  • Rough speech like "I'm gonna kick your ass/suck my dick/fag"

  • Gets mistaken for a boy (presumably due to hairstyle and clothing)

  • Puts you in headlocks/wrestles with yoy

I generally am fond of when a woman is naturally feminine enough that it rejects androgyny.

There are people who are in to the androgyny and there are dudes who are into a girl who looks as good in overalls mucking a barn as she looks in a cocktail dress on the town. Different motivations in each case.

  1. Maybe it's a case of Don't ask fish how to catch them. Men post tomboy gf memes, but aren't really that attracted to those things in real life, they're attracted to femininity even as its very desirability frustrates the piss out of them and makes them wish for something else. Gender reversed women saying they wish they could just marry their bestie.

  2. that said, my actual type is "hot," and even my definition of hot is pretty broad compared to many/most men's. I've dated a good number of women who met many/most of those characteristics. At the end of the day, those traits are orthogonal to the things that really attracted me to those girls (eyes/breasts/ass/lips) and my horny brain is going to work backwards from the physical attraction to "Her short hair really shows off her features, and I can watch her give me head more easily so it's hot" or "those baggy sweatpants just show off how skinny she is, and they're so easy to pull off her.

Would none of the qualities on that list appeal to you in a partner?

I think many men find some stereotypical feminine qualities to be frustrating at times - taking a long time to get ready before going out, excessive or clownlike makeup, lack of interest in masculine hobbies, a lack of willingness to speak straightforwardly (e.g. "I'm fine"), e.t.c. I think the first meme you linked can be partially understood as an expression of that frustration in an arguably humourous way. I think a lot of the appeal of these memes isn't the appeal of a woman who perfectly fits the stereotypical tomboy extreme, but a "the grass is always greener" type of effect. In that sense I think a lot of men really do find the fantasy (if not necessarily the reality) of a tomboy gf attractive. And perhaps I'm misunderstanding the meme, but the line about kids in the bottom right sounds very much like a traditionally motherly, nurturing attitude to me. I think that it is precisely this mixture of traditionally feminine traits and "buddy who plays video games with you and the boys" type character that makes the tomboy gf an attractive character, more so than simply a "bro with a pussy". Someone who can play Halo and laugh and punch your arm but also be feminine when you need her to be. Does that make sense to you?

I can kind of see how a bro-gf might have appealed to 14 year old me

Have you considered that the people making these memes might be teenagers themselves?

Step me through where the emotional immaturity is supposed be happening. My wife is pretty tomboyish, and we have a pretty normal relationship minus the occasionally flipped gender roles. Though I wouldn't overstate the case here, you seem to be implying that tomboys are literally like men, when women have trouble filling these shoes even when they're pumping themselves with testosterone. The benefits are obvious and you even listed some yourself. I'd also add being able to communicate more directly, and not having to mindread and navigate various shittests. What exactly am I supposed to be missing out on?

And since we're pathologizing each other's preferences, from what I'm seeing of tomboy haters it almost feels you don't believe in any positives of traditional gender roles yourself, you just need someone to look down on, and we're fucking things up for you by not playing the same game as you.

My wife is pretty tomboyish, and we have a pretty normal relationship minus the occasionally flipped gender roles.

This is actually how my relationship is, but I wouldn't call my wife a tomboy. Maybe we need more shades of meaning than "wheat field tradwife" and "tomboy."

And since we're pathologizing each other's preferences,

I don't think you're the sort of person I'm talking about in the OP, but thanks I guess.

Oh. This might be worth clarifying, I think other people responding might have misunderstood you as well.

Thanks, done.

What kind of answer do you want to hear? You don't seem very receptive to the idea that it's a legitimate preference.

I guess I don't think it is one, but there are a lot of smart people on here who sometimes are able to help me see things from a different angle so I suppose I was hoping for that. If I could tell you what kind of answer I wanted, if I could steelman this in my head, I probably wouldn't ask here.

If I had to imagine a well-adjusted and over 25 who was into tomboys, I suppose I would imagine a guy with traditionally feminine personality traits who enjoyed taking on traditionally female aspects of a male-female relationship. But I don't think that's what I'm seeing on the internet, instead it just seems like emotional immaturity. Are there mature, feminine men who are into tomboys in any significant number? Or are men who like tomboys a totally different breed? Or something else I haven't imagined?

I’m the opposite, I don’t understand why anyone would find feminine behaviour attractive. Why wouldn’t you much rather have a partner that’s strong, stoic, driven, ambitious, practical, able to provide for both themselves or for you, takes the lead, etc? Versus one that’s submissive, meek, relies on you for emotional and physical reassurance, is more anxious and stressed out, doesn’t have grand ambitions beyond their family, is more interested in people than concepts, and forces the relationship into artificially divided roles based on gender?

Now sure I’m not a straight guy so it’s hard for me to empathise, but I honestly can’t understand why men fall in love with feminine women when I hear them complain so much about how they can’t understand their partner, how they don’t share interests, how they’re [insert stereotype of women here], how they don’t initiate sex, etc. Why not go for an equal life partner who shares your drive, focus and interests, and is just as sexually motivated as you instead?

I agree that men who complain about that stuff are ridiculous. "My female feminine wife acts like such a woman! How could this happen to me? Who could have forseen this?" It's silly.

I imagine it's probably pretty different for gay guys, so my OP probably doesn't apply to them

There’s obvious upside to a gf who makes no demand on your gender role (provide, protect, listen) while doubling as a friend. It's like two for the price of zero.

Trigger warning: traditional gender roles

But I enjoy providing, protecting, and listening. That's what men by nature want to do. I think men who don't want to do that have something wrong with them, like women who hate children or want to spend their life in an office cubicle instead of marrying . Those men are either abnormal or immature (I believe "manchildren" is the hip term).

I don't want my girlfriend to be my friend, she's not a dude, she's a romantic partner. She fulfills a different need. I have male friends who fill the other role. A tomboy just seems like subpar gf mixed with a subpar buddy.

No accounting for taste, I suppose. Can’t say the idea of paying for her stuff, killing spiders and listening to her day fills me with lust. I could point to intersexual competition for resources to argue that it’s natural, but that would be an ultimately pointless appeal to nature. So I disagree on two levels with ‘provide is by nature what men want to do, therefore they should’.

You extoll maturity in men while supporting the infantilization of women, as one more kid to protect and provide for. She's not a child, she's a romantic partner. She fulfills a different need. Would you rather have sex with your buddy or your kid?

Would you rather have sex with your buddy or your kid?

An adult woman who doesn't pretend to be a man is a kid?

Your ideal feminine woman has infantile traits, like a tomboy has buddy-like traits. If a man’s preference for buddy-like traits in women makes him abnormal, immature and gay because liking his buddies is those things, what does a preference for childlike traits make the other?

But don’t get hang up on that. People get defensive when you attack their preferences. Personally I don’t care if your wife leads you by a leash or calls you daddy. You’re very mature and normal.

Tomboys pretends to be men?

You're arguing in favor of a broad definition of tomboy, while I'm talking about something rather narrow. From the linked meme in the OP:

  • Thinks makeup is stupid

  • Likes porn

  • Likes video games

  • Rough speech like "I'm gonna kick your ass/suck my dick/fag"

  • Gets mistaken for a boy

  • Puts you in headlocks

Sounds like a boy or young man to me.

The porn and headlock thing sounds like a fantasy more than anyone I met in real life, but the rest seem legit. But I wouldn't say any of these means you're pretending to be a man, other than deliberately trying to be mistaken for one.

The porn and headlock thing sounds like a fantasy more than anyone I met in real life

I think this sort of touches on what I find strange about the meme. It's an imaginary version of a tomboy that is basically a bro. Tomboyish girls (that I have known) aren't like that, they're just girls who are a bit more masculine in a few areas, or even just girls who are confident.

But I wouldn't say any of these means you're pretending to be a man

Yeah, that was too broad a statement. That other poster just got under my skin.

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