The Wednesday Wellness threads are meant to encourage users to ask for and provide advice and motivation to improve their lives. It isn't intended as a 'containment thread' and any content which could go here could instead be posted in its own thread. You could post:
-
Requests for advice and / or encouragement. On basically any topic and for any scale of problem.
-
Updates to let us know how you are doing. This provides valuable feedback on past advice / encouragement and will hopefully make people feel a little more motivated to follow through. If you want to be reminded to post your update, see the post titled 'update reminders', below.
-
Advice. This can be in response to a request for advice or just something that you think could be generally useful for many people here.
-
Encouragement. Probably best directed at specific users, but if you feel like just encouraging people in general I don't think anyone is going to object. I don't think I really need to say this, but just to be clear; encouragement should have a generally positive tone and not shame people (if people feel that shame might be an effective tool for motivating people, please discuss this so we can form a group consensus on how to use it rather than just trying it).
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Hello! First post here, lurker on and off for some time. Not sure how to phrase my question so I'll give a bit of info about myself first.
I'm a woman in my early 30s, college graduate with a worse-than-useless (i.e. expensive!) degree, working in a field that I don't find particularly challenging or motivating. This is fine with me, it pays the bills and then some and I have plenty of leisure time. I always was good enough at school to be placed in "gifted" classes but looking back, "smart" meant good at school and not much more. Concepts like "critical thinking" only began to resonate woefully late, after I'd already received my bachelor's degree (how??). For the past few years I've been very narrowly focused on studying psychology, PTSD, other self-helpy topics. Other hobbies include studying languages, fitness, painting, cooking, spending too much time on Reddit, etc.
I don't have many friends and struggle to make and maintain relationships. I tend to not like people very much and get fixated on my one person (usually a romantic partner) and am chronically disappointed by aspects of these relationships. Recently, I've been experimenting with cannabis and feel as though my mind has fundamentally changed in some way (even when I'm not "under the influence"). I've become extremely fascinated by history and, for lack of a better way of putting it, how and why things are the way they are. Suddenly the realm of knowledge one can acquire seems immensely vast and I am hungry to learn as much as I possibly can. Beyond that, I want to meet and know smart people who I can learn from! I'm overwhelmed and don't know where to start. After more than 30 years of never trying to discuss anything remotely intellectual, I feel stunted and useless. I feel like I've missed out on my best years specializing in psudoscience and "the arts."
I guess I'm grappling with both the burgeoning understanding of my own ignorance, as well as a lack of direction and community. I don't know anyone who wants to talk about anything other than the shallowest pop culture. I'm beginning to resent my relationship with my boyfriend who doesn't seem to have the skills or desire (not clear which) to converse about anything intellectual or controversial. I also don't feel like I'm smart enough to contribute meaningfully in spaces such as this one. Aaaand I continually feel discouraged when the means I try to use to increase my knowledge feel above my level. Like, maybe I'm just limited by lower intelligence? Wondering where others began and if anyone has any advice, thanks!
Unpopular opinion: It is genuinely possible to be not smart enough to productively engage in intellectual discussion, while still being smart enough to appreciate it and aspire for more. A lot of people are too obsessed with kindness over accuracy to point that out.
That being said, if you're a lurker, it's hard for anyone to judge one way or another given that they have nothing to judge on!
If you made it onto gifted programs, you can't be too dumb, and you're not likely to be outright below average either. Of course, I'm not in a position to judge how much that assessment measures conscientiousness and hard work as opposed to raw intelligence.
If I had to pull numbers out of my ass, I'd wager that people below an IQ of 110 are unlikely to ever be respected members around these parts, and those below 100 likely incapable of contributing anything of note. That's not a very high bar, but it still rules out billions of people.
Now, my forays into the ratsphere began decades ago, so I can hardly remember the exact path I traced, but it was something like-
Normie reddit - LessWrong - Slate Star Codex - The Motte. I certainly got a great deal out of reading the Sequences by Yudkowsky, no matter how clichéd that sounds.
My previous girlfriend, while very sweet, was a normie who couldn't really keep up with me on anything interesting. On the other hand, my current girlfriend is tack sharp, and sufficiently well read and capable of forming her own opinions that we regularly have vigorous debate.
I didn't break up with my previous gf over that of course, I have enough mortal intellectual combat online to scratch that itch 🙏. It's up to you what kind of tradeoff you want in a partner if you can't have both.
There are a few degrees, like Law and Philosophy, that do end up making you sharper and more astute, but those aside, I'm an unabashed STEMlord.
I'm quite certain that the smarter you are, the more likely you are to be nerd-sniped by insight porn. Certainly, you don't see dumb people going on random Wiki crawls.
Fascinating, thanks for taking the time to share all this.
Ha, I definitely didn't work hard at all, and had a lot working against me (divorced parents, time divided 50-50 between the two homes, raised by addict/bipolar mom and thoroughly disinterested dad) so I probably am not unintelligent.
It's amusing to think how long I incuriously took for granted that "I am smart," not bothering to question to what extent that was true (and what I should do with it). Your last point about "insight porn" resonates although I hadn't heard the term before.
Again, I appreciate your response!
More options
Context Copy link
Sorry doctors but if your work is mostly deducing off things you memorized and doesn't involve math, you are still part of the kingdom of STEM. But a STEMserf perhaps, lord..? No.
Let's call it STEM adjacent then, we did have biochemistry with actual equations (!!) in our syllabus after all.
Doesn't M in STEM stand for medicine to begin with? And diagnosing/treating is basically debugging a human, as far as I'm concerned. Don't let them bully you!
The M usually stands for mathematics. The science in STEM only encompasses the natural sciences.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I know what you mean. I felt this way somewhat when I found the rationalist space years ago. I basically just put my non work life on hold and read all these posts from slate star: https://slatestarcodex.com/archives/
With a lot of googling and other research as well. Took me about six months but it was worth it, my world view changed entirely.
Thanks for your response--I guess I need to accept it'll take time and things might feel different as time passes. Exciting to hear that you feel it was worth it, though! An ex of mine used to always share SSC posts with me and I felt like I couldn't understand them. Going to try again, but more slowly.
Unironically try asking ChatGPT about concepts and specific posts you couldn't follow. It knows about SSC, and is smart enough to help.
I appreciate this! Still stuck in my primitive googling ways but I should give this a shot.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
It helps too if you can discuss these things with other people, online or IRL. There are a bunch of SSC meetups and effective altruism meetups if you’re into that crowd.
Yeah, I used to be terrified of "looking stupid" so kept my mouth shut on basically everything until... now? Bad strategy, would not recommend!
I still remember marveling that the stupidest-sounding kid in my college engineering classes was getting the highest test grades. It turns out that everybody had stupid questions, and "ask them right away and look stupid" was a better way to handle them than "keep your embarrassing secret and hope you can fix it all by yourself before test time comes".
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Having real conversation partners is nice but not necessary, I mean you are on the motte with hundreds of potential people to talk about "intellectual" topics. Start off by talking to us?
As for meeting them in real life, it's going to be difficult. Just because your intellectual interests align doesn't mean your personalities won't clash. If you think this is going to be too difficult based on your geographical area, then just accept the fact it will probably never happen. Lucky for you theres thousands of niche online forums.
More options
Context Copy link
I joined a local Toastmasters club in my 20’s in the early 00’s, and I now have a circle of fifteen friends and dozens of acquaintances who talk about interesting things in all fields of life.
My advice is to visit Toastmasters clubs and join the one which has people like you’d like to be like, or the one with the most interesting speech topics. You’ll find yourself blossoming in months.
I literally never heard of Toastmasters until like, yesterday. There are about a hundred within 5 miles of me it seems. Thanks!
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I'm 31. I've joked that half my reading of the past two years have been completing homework assignments I half assed in a great books course freshman year of undergrad.
Early 30s is when Jesus and the Buddha and Mohamed got serious. You got time. You have valuable contributions to make.
Great comment, thank you so much.
/images/1683942110774049.webp
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I love the arts (why the scare quotes?) I also typically find reading or online discussions on what you're referring to as intellectual topics much more bearable than sitting and listening to people in realtime drone on about their idiosyncratic worldviews. Lots of signaling and posturing in those settings.
While your boyfriend may not be your go-to for discussions on geopolitics or phenomenology, that's not perhaps what boyfriends are best suited for (any more than girlfriends, or husbands, or wives). (Note I am not suggesting anything lascivious, just that the emotional comforts of an SO do not always correlate with their readiness for or prowess at intellectual debate.)
I don't mean to sound too bearish on your post here, I just think it might be idealizing a certain smartperson (TM) reality that doesn't exist, or doesn't exist the way I am perceiving you are framing it.
Reading wide and various is my advice, such as it is. But it sounds as if you're already doing that.
Edit for poor thumbtyping.
Thanks for the insightful reply. I think you're correct to point out the way my present mindset is coloring the things that I think are valuable and those that seem not to be. No shade to the arts ("the arts") intended, I suppose I might be a bit disappointed in the extent to which I specialized. I've been actively spending time improving my painting skills, and that is something important I don't plan to discard.
As for the rest, I think you're right re: my idealization and I appreciate hearing it. I think I might be clinging to this as "the answer" to other areas of dissatisfaction in my life. I have a tendency to fixate/obsess on one thing or another and this is probably the latest manifestation of that (and it happens to be much broader in nature, I think, than my usual obsessions (e.g. houseplants or fashion). Ultimately, I'm feeling a lack of social connection and a frustration with what feels like hollow interactions with people who don't seem to understand me (and vice versa). Years of self-help psychology, therapy, and other forms of "healing from trauma" haven't been terribly effective. But now I'm rambling so I'll leave it there. Thanks again!
Your self-awareness, lack of defensiveness, and clarity of prose all suggest to me that should you find a group of likeminds--as long as they don't happen to also be assholes--you will thrive exactly as you imagine. Maybe you're already there.
It was once put to me that no one person has to be my everything. The same is of course true of social circles.
Again, thank you! I'm working on it. Never managed to maintain a friendship for more than a couple years (even in school) but I've learned a lot about how to keep showing up and be intentional, so hopefully this time I'll do better.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I've been into "intellectual" pursuits for most of my life, since middle school at least since I started consuming all science news articles I could find.
A couple things that might be "wisdom" from me:
Pursuing intellectual topics does not require anything other than average intelligence and interest. You don't have to be a genius to find history, cool science, or esoteric brain topics fun. I do believe IQ is real, and can have some noticeable real world effects, but most of those effects can become a wash if some other person has more time and interest.
Speaking of time, you are starting late, but that is not a bad thing at all. In some ways I am jealous. There are many cool things to learn, and you have lots of low hanging fruit. Unlike school this is not a competition. You don't have to be the most learned person in the room. You only have to compare yourself against how much you knew yesterday.
Romantic partners don't have to share all of your interests. I have a wife who is not intellectually inclined at all. I'd also be pretty confident that she is smarter than me IQ wise. I don't think most people are intellectually inclined. That is fine. You can still connect with them on other areas of shared interest. You can still be attracted to them. You can still enjoy activities with them.
You can often find the intellectually inclined doing things that work out their brain. It might seem obvious, but its worth pointing. People that care about their body can be found doing things that exercise their body. Same with the mind. There are meetup groups for slatestarcodex, dungeons and dragons groups are about using your imagination and acting skills, and any text-based online community or forum is going to mostly be people using their minds.
I like browsing youtube for interesting science education. There are some very fascinating historical blogs and podcasts out there.
When I asked ChatGPT for advice for you, they gave what I thought was mediocre advice, so I won't repeat it. But when I asked what groups you should join I thought their advice was more helpful (except for item #7, which is a bad suggestion I think):
Book clubs or reading groups: These groups bring people together to discuss and analyze books on a variety of topics. They can be a great way to meet like-minded people and expand your knowledge.
Historical societies: Many cities and towns have local historical societies that offer lectures, tours, and other events related to local history.
Language learning groups: Meetup groups and language exchange programs offer opportunities to practice speaking and learning languages with others.
Philosophy clubs: These groups discuss philosophical concepts and ideas, often with a focus on applying them to real-world issues.
Meetup groups for intellectual or academic topics: Meetup.com has a wide variety of groups for people interested in everything from science and technology to social issues and politics.
Toastmasters International: This organization helps people improve their public speaking and leadership skills through meetings, workshops, and other events.
Mensa: This organization is open to people with high IQ scores and offers networking opportunities, social events, and other resources for intellectual growth.
Thank you for your kind and thorough response! The craziest part is that I didn't feel like I was uninformed... it just didn't occur to me to consider how much more was out there. Feels totally silly in retrospect but my past self looks like a shell to me! I really appreciate the sentiment "You only have to compare yourself against how much you knew yesterday."
And thank you for sharing point number 3--I also think my partner is more intelligent than me, and my frustration is likely coming from feeling a lack of shared interests at all right now. That and those interests we do share, he doesn't seem to want to talk about. So... probably a whole other issue.
And good recs from ChatGPT! I'm lucky to live (and work) in one of the most populous cities in the US so there isn't much of an excuse for me not finding people to connect with. Gotta keep at it (and be patient)!
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link