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qutb's and ben laden's.
Which is?
Their religious beliefs.
Although you will probably choose a more defensible motte, "admiration of the culture" or similar nonsense.Okay look, "I don't believe you, even if you say otherwise I know you really just want to jihad us" is going beyond uncharitable.
If you ask someone what they believe and they tell you, you don't have to believe them, but you can't just keep calling them a liar because it doesn't fit your assumptions.
Let's hear it then. @BurdensomeCount, deny the shahada, and I'll treat you with great charity.
No, why would I do that? The Shahada is fundamental to what it means to be a Muslim and I will not deny it. It's just saying that God is one and that Muhammad is His messenger, nothing more than that.
But really, what does the Shahada have to do with my dislike of Western modernity?
There you go @Amadan.
Burdensomecount plays the part of a cynic, a neutral critic of the west’s foibles, but that is not who he really is. He is a religious man. The religion he identifies with was thoroughly humiliated by the west, that is why he hates it.
All of his religion’s claims to Truth, to Greatness, to the welfare of its people, have crumbled into dust. No one is more aware of it than he is, living in the godless west. For all his talk of the dysfunctionality of the west, he is so cognizen of his religions’ shortcomings and foul fruits, that he would rather live among his enemies than among his friends. Far from the light of his God, and yet so much brighter.
The cognitive dissonance causes him to lash out at his hosts in trollish barbs, so they can feel his pain.
"I am a Muslim" does not mean "I secretly want to kill or forcibly convert you all and will do so as soon as we gain power."
There are undoubtedly Muslims who feel that way. Maybe @BurdensomeCount is one of them! Some of his anti-Western polemics are pretty... spicy.
If your grievance is with Islam itself, talk about Islam, and if your grievance is with @BurdensomeCount, then attack the actual words he writes, but "You admit to being a Muslim, I believe all Muslims want to kill or forcibly convert us whether they admit it or not, therefore you want to kill or forcibly convert us " is not only uncharitable, but very poor reasoning.
Notably, you only asked him if he'd repudiate his religion, you didn't bother to ask him what specifically he believes. There isn't even a hint of effort from you to engage in good faith.
Not what I said. I said he didn't come to his hatred/dislike of the west through reason, and whatever he says on that subject is not his true objection (his true objection being his religious beliefs), just motivated reasoning. I can give him all the charity he wants on islamic violence, let's assume he, specifically, does not in any way endorse violence against unbelievers.
He does affect a 'how do you do, fellow cynical rationalists' attitude that grates me, but I'm not calling him a liar. If you read between the lines or ask enough times, the truth of his allegiance becomes clear. He just wants to criticize without going through the trouble of defending his own position, that's a natural inclination.
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