site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   34999 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 30, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

13
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

This guy goes up in the lift with her and propositions her. I do understand why she'd feel at risk in a confined space with a possibly drunk guy where she has no idea how he'll react (and her being possibly drunk and tired as well didn't help with how she reacted or felt).

If this is a big enough worry for someone, it may be worth following a reverse-Pence rule and actively avoiding getting into confined spaces with young men.

The Pence Rule is a good one. Don't, in situations where alcohol is involved, be alone with a person of the opposite sex. It's a good rule for women and for men. Because stupid crap happens - people do get tempted, people do get carried away, misunderstandings like this one happen. There's too many cases of "married boss and secretary/assistant had affair" because of propinquity and time spent together and getting close.

Yes, I think it's laughably ironic that all the 'bad' old religious rules about "leave room for the Holy Ghost" are coming back in our era of liberation and openness and no kinkshaming, but it's evidence that the old rules weren't stupid but were based on practical experience of what happens when sex and alcohol and temptation are in the mix. They chopped down the Chesterton's Fence and then were astounded to be gored by the bull, so now they're busy building giant walls in place of the fence, which is an over-reaction.

propinquity

It's relatively rare I learn a wholly new, non-technical word these days. Thanks.

I haven't conducted a rigorous survey to determine preferences, but anecdotally a lot of women do avoid being alone with men they don't know/don't know well. However, it isn't necessarily easy in all contexts - sometimes you're stuck using a nominally public space which doesn't afford the usual 'protection' of crowds of people to witness any bad behavior (such as a hotel elevator late at night).

Then, I think, it's time for a risk assessment and an exploration of mitigation strategies. Have any of the women you've known ever carried a self defense weapon like mace or a taser?

They've gotten their fear of social danger mixed up with their fear of physical danger.

I've spent lots of time around women who actually have been physically assaulted, and they don't pull this "I feel unsafe" crap. They have some idea of what dangerous men actually look and smell like, and don't regard all men they meet as incipient rapists.

My own theory is that women get told constantly to Be Afraid, but don't actually know what it is they're supposed to be afraid of and thus their Danger Sense isn't particularly well-calibrated.

They have some idea of what dangerous men actually look and smell like, and don't regard all men they meet as incipient rapists.

And, of course, approximately zero of their attacks will look like, "goes to an atheist conference, drinks with a group, and then attacks one of the other conference-goers in an elevator". I'm not saying that none of the men there are predators or that none of them would use physical force under some circumstances, but I'd bet that this is not the modus operandi. This was right around the peak of Law and Order: SVU popularity though, so "nerdy atheist brutally attacks women in elevators" probably sounded like the kind of thing that happens all the time.

I've privately theorized that the reason the woke seem to be predisposed to latch on takes like all men are rapists, all blacks are criminals, etc... is that they're actually unable to read the subtler queues of predatory behavior and are thus defaulting to coarser proxies.

seem to be

Ah, there's your problem.

Who actually does this? Who is latching on to "all blacks are criminals" and using that to justify reparations or whatever?

This is one of the least charitable takes I've seen on this board. At least from someone who isn't actively trolling. It assumes your enemies are both incompetent and malicious, and to do so, it relies on an absolutely bizarre example.

Okay, let's throw out that example and replace it with something more credibly woke, like "all cops are bastards." What advantage does this theory have over one based on negotiation?

There is obvious strategic and historical precedent for using a "coarser proxy," like a slogan, to start negotiation from a stronger point. "54-40 or fight!" It has the added advantage of making it harder for enemies to dramatically mislabel one's position. You can explain the worst excesses of woke sloganeering as a signaling race to the bottom. No need to construct a narrow form of autism.

A lot of this is just not being exposed to this stuff, and not being willing to listen to people who are without it going through 27 layers of academic theory. They’re sheltered, not stupid.

It's like a psychological allergy. Growing up in an environment that's too clean prevents your immune system from calibrating appropriately, and it seems that growing up with too much psychological safety has a similar effect. Unfortunately, this trait has become a kind of status signifier among women, and so they're now actively cultivating their psychological allergies.

the woke seem to be predisposed to latch on takes like ... all blacks are criminals

In what universe do the woke subscribe to this take?

This one. Have you not been paying attention to the last decade or so of rhetoric surrounding policing, no cash bail, decriminalization, etc.?

That is nowhere close to believing all blacks are criminals though. The prototypical woke person might say Black people are incorrectly viewed as being criminals by systemic bias in law enforcement (and society in general) and therefore dismantling those systems will be beneficial for black communities who have been targeted for criminalization (they will likely point to differences in drug possession laws and length of.sentences and so on).That is not the same thing at all. More nuanced progressives might say that black people do commit more crime (though it is still skewed by racist police) but will explain that through systemic poverty, poor mental health treatment and the like driven by systemic or structural racism. But again that is nowhere near saying all blacks are criminals

The woke oppose each and every anti-criminal policy because they believe, correctly, that such measures will have a disparate impact on blacks. It's a doublethink situation similar to Dreher's Law Of Merited Impossibility, except instead of "it will never happen, and when it does, you bigots will deserve it" it's "blacks are not more criminal than average, and if you support any tough-on-crimes policy you are a racist because criminals are disproportionately black."

As Covfefe Anon says, "The Woke Are More Correct Than The Mainstream".

The problem with @Covfefe_Anon's take, is that it the whole dark skin = underlass really only holds predictive value in spaces that are already dominated by the woke. My own experience, as well as that of several others here, would suggest that this is far from inevitable. Accordingly can't help but suspect naive assumption that wokist habit cultivating racial division/grievences is in fact increasing racial division, and "racism" rather than fighting.

Just a week ago we were treated to the spectacle of a bunch of college kids from traveling from Portland and Boston to Atlanta to "fight racism" by smashing windows in minority neighborhoods and setting fire to cars. Now they and thier supporters are screaming "white supremecy" and "internalized racism" because instead finding themselves welcomed as liberators they found themselves being pelted with rocks by the local populace, shot at/arrested by the local (predominantly black) cops, and charged with domestic terrorism by the Georga State AG at the behest of Atlanta's black Mayor.

Ironically the only sources that seem to be covering it (outside local channels) are the hard core partisans, I suspect in part because the woke at the New York and LA Times are smart enough to realize that this is not a good look for them.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats