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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   3364 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for January 1, 2023

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I believe that Indian restaurants make food less spicy for non-Indian patrons and spicier (or at least regular spicy) for Indian patrons. This belief stems from a) Indian friends telling me that the white-washed Indian restaurants they've gone to aren't nearly as spicy as home, and b) me ordering the spiciest dishes (generally vindaloo) and not being phased by the spiciness.

I'd like to run some experiments to determine how true this is. I have practically zero experimental design experience and would like input/advice.

Here's my basic plan:

  1. Order vindaloo takeout under a white name and pick up

  2. Wait 30 min to prevent order batching

  3. Order vindaloo takeout under an Indian name and pick up

  4. Cool both in the refrigerator for two hours (this is to blind me to which dish is which by temperature)

  5. Mark both to distinguish white vs. Indian (do this in a way that doesn't allow me to see)

  6. Heat them both up evenly

  7. Randomize so I don't know which dish I am eating

  8. Sample one dish

  9. Cleanse my palate (to start at spiciness zero)

  10. Sample the other dish

  11. Compare the two dishes' spiciness

I think recruiting a friend or two would help to add more data points and make the blinding easier/less prone to failure.

Open to any thoughts. And if you're in the Dallas area and interested in participating, let me know!

I lived in India for a year and became obsessed with the food, which is comparatively bland in the States. So, I learned to cook it myself. Indian food is all about the spice - heat as well as flavor. The key is good recipes and quality spices (which I eventually bought in bulk or at import stores because supermarket price/quality/quantity ratio's are expensive. Fresh Indian food is totally different form the restaurant stuff. My Lamb Rogan Josh is well liked by my fellow western friends (the key is large cubes of lamb imo).

My guess is that you're probably right; they might add more chili to heat up dishes for an Indian sounding names. I know they do this in Thai take out places. But it'll pale in comparison to making it at home (which will indeed smell for a few days).

I'd love if you did a post on this. My lamb curries are... kinda ok, I guess. Although they've gotten worse and samey since I started doing big batches. I can't seem to make them taste different from each other...

I'm lucky to have basically infinite lamb shoulder for experimentation with plenty of bones, but there's something about the spices I can't get right.

Edit. My post is showing an erroneous strikethrough and I don't know why.

Interesting. My has been a huge crowd pleaser for people who don't necessarily like indian food. I'd say they're being polite, but they request it at subsequent dinner parties. I buy lamb leg; on or off the bone. I spend a lot of time cutting it into 3cm cubes (they are smaller when cooked). I use a razor sharp knife to remove as much excess fat and tendons as possible (anything I think will get chewy, lamb is rich enough). I do batches of 2-3kg's (6-8 people with leftovers I want) and I use approx 10-15% more of the primary spices (coriander, and, moreso, cumin). I get fairly fresh and quality spices from an indian import shop near me. Not essential, but its like 1/4 the price of the good stuff at the supermarket (look for saturated colors and uniform consistency. Some coriander looks like they put the seeds and stems in a coffee grinder).

I swear I had an Alton Brown recipe the first few times I made it, but I can't find it on the internet anymore. Ive used this one more recently:

https://www.recipetineats.com/rogan-josh/ (per 750g)

Oil or butter instead of ghee is fine IME

Tsp of cinnamon instead of a stick is fine

Cardamom is essential for lamb rogan josh, but I add 1tbs ground instead of pods when needed.

I go half-dose on the paprika, but that's my preference (I find the cardamom gives it a deep, rich flavor, whereas paprika is more bitter).

I don't bother with the fennel powder.

Sometimes I forget the garam masala.

I 1.5x-2x the onions.

I add cayenne or fresh red chilis for heat (which will intensify while cooking, but I like heat).

The Alton Brown recipe called for leaving it overnight in the fridge and re-heating. The flavors do intensify. Plus also helps get one dish out of the way.

I almost always serve with a minty raita (crucial), store-bought nan, jeera rice, this lentil stew (not the quinoa part, just the lentil curry and I never bothered with the coconut flakes), and maybe an okra masala. Its a feast.

With quality spices, large cubes of lamb, and a watchful eye, the lamb has never failed to impress. It can stick towards the end. The saltiness won't be obvious until the very end for some weird reason. If needed, salt can be added late, or when served. I tend to get the saltiness just under my perfect amount of salt while its cooling. I just tate/stir/repeat until its just under salted for me. The stock has salt, so additional salt may not be needed. I cook in one or two large braising pans, on very low heat. Nonstick is perhaps preferable, but either way it will require monitoring, and gentle stirring. My goal is to have every cube be the best cube: large, and tender enough to chew without teeth. I think this dish would be unprofitable in a restaurant. You lose ~15% of the lamb in the trimming process, and use slightly more high quality spices. But its incredible.

Both light red and light white wine are fine. So is cold beer.

Pre-dinner cocktails? A Long Vodka:

1 oz. Simple syrup of fresh lemon juice and honey (might need to heat the juice and honey to get honey to dissolve). To taste. Should be fairly sweet. 1-2 lemons per cocktail. The pre-squeezed stuff in the plastic lemon sucks ass; stuff in a bottle is okay.

3oz vodka form the freezer

3 oz seltzer

Dashes of angostura bitter.

Stir and serve in a high-ball or larger.

If you do some or all whenever, let me know how it worked out!

I've done all of the above several times for my Indian night, and can now autopilot enough of it to do it day-of but it def takes time (hence doing just the lamb the night before can be a good idea).

If you're going to be comparing between two things, you ought to do the triangle test. Three options, two are the same one is distinct. If you can't even tell which of the three is the odd one out, you have no business trying to guess which is which.

I'm a desi and I ordered desi food in the US a few times (over 10 different retaurants at varying prices across new york and new jersey). Its just bland across the board, way worse than what you get back home, tastes flat/lifeless in comparison. Id wager freshness of aromatics and spices is a factor in that as well. Spices have a flavor half life.

I think I'd have to agree with what @screye said, they probably go easy on all the spices/aromatics not only the chilli peppers.

generally vindaloo

There might be a couple of funny things happening here.

1. They aren't ordering Vindaloo

I have never once seen an Indian order Vindaloo ever (in USA/India). It's actually incredible when I think about it. A lifetime of eating Indian food with Indians (me included), and not a single Vindaloo that was ordered. (and I grew up on the western coast on India where the dish originates from).

Most Indians are likely ordering other familiar dishes like Chicken Tikka Masala and Butter Chicken. The American preparations for these 2 dishes are orders of magnitude sweeter and milder.

For reference. I'd say an Indian style Tikka Masala should land at a 7/10 in spice. A butter chicken should land at a 5/10. American versions are usually lagging on both by 2 points.

So it is likely, that your friends order the milder Tikka Masala or Butter Chicken and continue complaining about it.....while the actually spicy Vindaloo remains underexplored by the Indians.

2. 'Spicy' doesn't mean what you think it means.

Spicy & Mild in an Indian context can mean 3 different things :

I can mean the dish lacks a punch to its smell (aroma, garlic, onions, Kashmiri chilies), lacks khada-masala-heat (think coriander seeds, Kauri methi, or even black pepper. You feel this heat in your heart, not on your tongue) and lacks chilli-heat (Think straight habaneros or cayenne pepper).

In the sense, mild means under-seasoned more so than not-enough-chilies. So you might just be misunderstanding your friends.

American restaurants simply do not use enough aromatics or fresh-khade masale. So even when the food is chili-spicy, it tastes imbalanced. It is just heat for the sake of heat, no proper spiciness as we perceive it.

I believe that Indian restaurants make food less spicy for non-Indian patrons

3. Yes, they do discriminate based on color and accent

When I order spicy food (usually in Hindi or an obvious 1st gen immigrant accent) at Indian restaurants, they always ask me if I want it 'spicy' or 'Indian spicy'. And even if a white person asks for Indian spicy, they will like to see you handle a 7/10 in front of them, before they send out a 9/10 or a 10/10 for you.

Honestly, most Indians don't like a 9/10 or a 10/10 spicy dish either. We simply want our medium-spicy dishes to have fresh ingredients & attain the expected 6/10, instead of the Americanized 4/10s.

My recommendation:

  1. Order common authentic Indian dishes that are supposed to be spicy - Kolhapuri, Solapuri, Saoji, Gongura, Andra etc. They probably aren't popular enough to have multiple spice options. Also, if you know these dishes, it is good sign for the owner to trust that you know what you want with spice. Be warned, these are above what I can take. It can be a lot. There is 1 tier above these too, but they are novelty dishes that exist as a meme, not actual staples.

  2. Speak in broken hindi and enunciate properly. Say "tiKKKAa" instead of "TEEkuh" masala. Order by saying : "Bha-ee-yah, ayyk Chicken tiKKAa masala aaydum spicy kerr kay day-nah". (brother, give me a chicken tikka masala made spicy). That's enough to convince them.

  3. Just tell them you visited India and had Tikka Masala there. And to make it at that spice level. They will buy it.

You know, as a Cajun I can totally buy this explanation of the freshness of spices being a factor; restaurant Cajun food that's been topped up with hot sauce to bring it to the usual spice level just isn't the same as home-cooked food that's been made to be that spicy.

I am always surprised at how similar Cajun traditions seem to western-Indian traditions. I made Gumbo yesterday, and it almost felt like I was making an Indian curry. (The dark roux was obviously a new thing. though)

just isn't the same as home-cooked

This is true about so many southern American dishes. A fresh homemade-made Biscuits and Gravy always lives up to it's hype, and restaurant B&G tastes like goop on a golf ball.

I’ve heard indians in the south tend to buy seasonings and the like from Cajun grocers.

Interestingly, the guy who apparently invented chicken tikka masala in Scotland in the 1970s died just the other day; its Western origin makes me wonder whether it is widely eaten in India.

Knowing the Indian culinary tradition, I would not be surprised if Tikka Masala was simultaneously invented in many different places. That seems to be the current opinion of historic sources too. [1] [2]

However, there is no question that Mr. Ali Ahmed Aslam improvised the dish & popularized his version of it around the world. Tikka Masala is not as insanely popular in India, and the preparation is generally spicier, smokier & less tomato-forward. You will still find it on menus around the country though. Part of it's struggle is that once you have ordered Butter Chicken, you don't want to order another incredibly similar dish.

There is no 'right' way to make an Indian dish. It is all about techniques, feel and adapting it to your region. Tikka Masala shares every ingredient & technique with India's biggest culinary invention of the 20th century : butter chicken. It is likely that some places made it sufficiently spicier and tomato-ier to become Tikka Masala. But, I don't want to split hairs over how much culinary innovation is needed for naming rights.

I'm in DFW and vaguely interested in making this happen. But I am not particularly good at handling spicy food. I find standard "hot" wings to be enjoyable in small doses but not for a full meal, and I tend to order a 2-3/5 for Thai. Embarrassing, and I don't know that I would survive optimized vindaloo.

Your experimental design sounds good as long as you find somewhere that takes online orders. Doing it over the phone would likely confound the results. The other trick is palate cleansing since if one really is spicier, it may be hard to reset. I think Rov_Scam's design might mitigate this challenge?

Most of the Indian restaurants I've visited have an online ordering option. If not, I'd ask an Indian friend to order for me.

Agreed on the palate cleansing. I think a small dose of food plus milk will be fine. We'll see at the first try.

If it’s anything like Chinese restaurants, they probably have a secret menu in Hindi/Tamil/telugu/whatever and make it spicy for customers that order it in the Indian language off that menu.

This might not be a thing where you live, but every Indian (and Thai, for that matter) restaurant I've been to in Pittsburgh asks how spicy you want the dish on a 1–10 scale. As a white guy, 7 is usually the sweet spot (but may be a little tame), 8 is on the spicy side, and I couldn't imagine getting a 9 or 10. I've never ordered below a 7 but I imagine that the lower numbers are for more sensitive customers, like my mother who can detect the faintest hint of spice in something that seems bland to me. I'm doubtful that they'd dial back the relative spice level for "ethnic" customers if they're using such a scale, but I can see that they might do that to avoid offending gringos whose definition of spicy is a little less than the average Asian.

As for your experiment, I don't think the blinding and all the precautions are really necessary. For a relatively straightforward variable like spice level that manifests itself with obvious physical symptoms, if there's any real difference it should be enough to overcome any implicit bias you may have. If you really want to blind it, though, it's better to do it this way: Divide each order into, say, 10 bite-sized samples. Mark the bottom of each dish with a number and write down which number corresponds to which order. Refrigerate the samples for two hours and then renumber them without looking at the original numbers. Take a bite or two of each sample unblinded to establish a baseline. Taste each sample and write down your guess as to which order it is, under the assumption that the samples ordered under an Indian name will be spicier, and write down your guess next to the new numbers. After you're finished, look match the new numbers with the original number to see what corresponds and check to see how many times you guessed correctly. If you're in the neighborhood of 50%, you're just guessing and you can be sure that there's no difference to the orders. The closer you get to 100%, obviously, the more likely it is that there is a difference. If there's no difference, or only a subtle difference, though, you'll probably figure this out pretty quickly.

I've seen that at Thai restaurants, but not the Indian places in my area.

I do want to blind it. Thanks for the design suggestion!

Have you tried to ask them to make your food Indian spicy? It seems to work at Thai places reasonably well.

I have, but that's not the point of my experiment. I want to see if they are discriminating against non-Indians without being asked to increase the spice.

Aha, god luck, I'll be curious to see the results. Can you enlist a lab assistant to make the blind test a bit easier to manage?

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