site banner
PaperclipPerfector  18d ago (text post)   31978 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 10, 2025

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

5
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

As a general rule, actions which are immediately and directly harmful to others should be outlawed by the state. Actions which are generally anti-social but via some combination of indirectness, mildness, or fundamental to freedom or other universal human rights are not appropriate targets for the State's jurisdiction should be shamed and shunned but technically permitted. Actions which are neutral or have primarily personal impact (no externalities) should be tolerated. Actions which are positive but indirect should be socially praised and encouraged. Actions which are strongly positive, and have direct and objective measuremes should be subsidized, funded, or directly done by the State.

I see no reason why actions being done related to sex or done by women should be exceptions to this rule one way or another. Harmful actions like rape should be illegal. Anti-social actions like spreading STDS or having children outside of marriage should be shamed. Non-diseased non-procreative sex should be mostly ignored/tolerated. Having healthy happy relationships should be celebrated. Having reproductive and well-run families should be subsidized.

Half the problem is society and the media shaming housewives and celebrating career-obsession and promiscuity. If that just stopped a lot of people would have nicer relationships and families of their own volition, no compulsion required. Just stop digging the hole deeper.

I see no reason why actions being done related to sex or done by women should be exceptions to this rule one way or another.

Then you lack imagination and/or aren't starting from the correct initial conditions.

Let's assume that I am a woman (or more traditionally, let's assume I own one, so her financial situation is a direct extension of mine).

I depend on my beauty for my business, which is trading sex with men in exchange for their resources (either through an exclusive agreement usually called a "marriage", or more serially/casually).

When another woman distributes a naked picture of herself, or sells sex at a discount, it means I now receive less resources for the same amount of sex.

Therefore, pornography and fornication are immediately and directly harmful to me, so they should be outlawed by the state.

When another woman distributes a naked picture of herself, or sells sex at a discount, it means I now receive less resources for the same amount of sex.

That is indirect. This is the distinction I was trying to make by using that qualifier. Direct harm would be if someone literally steals money from you. Indirect harm is when someone does something that does not actually involve you, but has second order effects on you, such as economically competing with you and lowering your market value via supply and demand. The State doesn't/shouldn't make it illegal to open a gas station across the street from another gas station. The State doesn't/shouldn't make it illegal to open a soup kitchen and distribute free food next to a restaurant. The State doesn't/shouldn't make it illegal to distribute or sell sex for free or at a cheaper rate than someone else.

Let's assume that I am a woman, I depend on my beauty for my business, which is trading sex with men in exchange for their resources (either through an exclusive agreement usually called a "marriage", or more serially/casually).

When another woman distributes a naked picture of herself, or sells sex at a discount, it means I now receive less resources for the same amount of sex. Therefore, pornography and fornication are immediately and directly harmful to me, so they should be outlawed by the state.

It's never been remotely permissible as a theory of harm that "now I receive less resources for the same amount of X".

After Henry Ford, farriers received less for the same number of horseshoes. After Gutenberg, typesetters received far less for the same number of manuscripts copied.

The distinction between legitimate (and even laudatory) economic competition and unfair economic harm has never purely about raising or lower anyone's price or profit.

It's never been remotely permissible as a theory of harm that "now I receive less resources for the same amount of X".

Especially not in America where such people are typically deposited in the great unmarked grave of obsolescence historically.

Which is why we are collectively the richest nation in the history of nations.

It's never been remotely permissible as a theory of harm that "now I receive less resources for the same amount of X".

Unless you happen to come upon some political power. In fact, that is what it is for.

The distinction between legitimate (and even laudatory) economic competition and unfair economic harm has never purely about raising or lower anyone's price or profit.

Why? There is no fairness beyond a state of affairs which maximally advantages you and your immediate socioeconomic interests and believing in a concept of fairness outside of that is only useful insofar as it rewards you more than it does the other guy.

Parasitism is a valid evolutionary strategy.

Not sure if you're just not from a WEIRD country and this is foreign to your thinking, but it's in all our socioeconomic interests to impose rules of fair competition. And so we do so -- imperfectly as all human structures.

We all benefit from the automobile even if it puts the farrier out of business. Society doesn't let him block the car just because "it rewards the other guy more than him".

...it means I now receive less resources for the same amount...

...and therefore, anything outside of my monopoly is an infringement on my rights, and should be banned.

I'm mostly with MathWizard here. The treatment of sex violates those general rules. Unlike him, I can see a few reasons why they should be an exception, but I'm still not sure if they're sufficient reasons.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats